[UPDATED] How solid was the NCAA's evidence against USC?
by Paragon SC on Jun 12, 2010 5:19 PM PDT
in USC Football
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UPDATED with Part 2 below the fold...P
A lot of the frustration that many USC fans feel over the NCAA's ruling has to do with just what evidence did the NCAA have. No one will dispute that there were some benefits received by Reggie Bush and his family. No one will dispute that when coupled with OJ Mayo, the Papadakis Taverna dinners and the Ornstein internships that the NCAA was clearly looking to tag USC with the Lack of Institutional Control charge.
Notice what I didn't mention was the Todd McNair angle. Based on the NCAA's "case" it would appear that McNair knew something...maybe he did and I tend to believe that he did but there is also no denying that the NCAA swallowed Lloyd Lake's story hook line and sinker. Even with the NCAA admitting that Lake is a questionable witness at best, they still used his testimony to nail USC. This while not allowing USC to have access to Lake in their interviews have.
We could be just starting to find out why.
Take the time to watch all of this video...
Again, this is just a snippet of Lakes testimony but it is pretty clear that the NCAA based much of their "findings" on hearsay alone. Lakes testimony is pretty inconsistent and he conned the NCAA into believing it. Lake didn't say McNair knew, he just said he figured he knew because he just had to know, right?
I am still not prepared to absolve McNair of any wrong doing. I mean if we are going to hold Lake accountable for his past then it is certainly fair to hold McNair responsible for his...based on what we have read in the report the NCAA didn't believe him. He certainly didn't knock it out of the park in the eyes of the NCAA so he could be lying about something.
The bigger issue here though is how the NCAA "connected the dots" with contradictory and flimsy testimony. The intellectual dishonesty in all of this is staggering.
Lake is saying McNair knew at the party that Lake and Micheals were sports marketing agents. The second key point is the phone call on Jan 8th 2006 McNair and Lake, Lake demanding McNair to force Reggie to stay with New Era.
This is important because...
The question facing the committee was whether student-athlete 1 agreed to become involved with the proposed agency and, if so, when that happened. The committee finds that an agreement for representation was made in the fall of 2004 when student-athlete 1 and his stepfather agreed to form a sports agency with agency partners A and B and that student-athlete 1 began receiving benefits at least by December 2004 when he received funds to purchase an automobile. [See Finding 1-a-(4).] Based on the information presented to the committee, not only was student-athlete 1 aware of and willing to accept assistance from agency partners A and B, but he also agreed to join in that effort. It is irrelevant whether student-athlete 1 intended to stay committed to the agency.
When Reggie becomes ineligible is the key to the 2004 season.
Lake says he gave the money to Lamar Griffin to buy Reggie's car sometime in Dec 2004. We played UCLA Dec 4th. Was the bill of sale before or after the UCLA game?
The NCAA can't even determine with certainty when Reggie was ineligible. That is the sort of garbage that the NCAA is using to hammer USC.
I am sure all of our haters and detractors will look at this as USC calling it a conspiracy theory but if the NCAA is left unchecked in continuing to use these sort of tactics then when it happens to them they might finally understand.
The video said it was part 1, I can't wait for part 2...
And here is Part 2...utterly amazing. I'm sure that as officers of the court that even the Law firm over at BN would admit that this is shameful...
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The NCAA is corrupt; off with their heads!!!
I can’t play the video. Surely I have the QT plug-ins? Is this the same video on youtube:
Yes...I converted it in case it gets pulled
I still have a copy even if they take it off the YouTube or SBN server
"Mention USC to a Bruin and they get angry; mention UCLA to a Trojan and they laugh."
It's fascinating, huh? Makes me so curious as to who posted it?
A crafty student working in the AD’s office? Great work, whomever it was.
todd mcnair
it probably todd mcnair himself just saying
And Who Could Blame Him?
I just read the USC response. What a Railroad job on McNair. They totally ignored his testimony and discounted everything he said.
If I am Todd I sue the pants off the Rich ncaa!
Why are there so many Scumbag Fans?
by so.cal.native1952 on Jun 13, 2010 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions
In regard to the Papadakis dinners
That has been going on for 20 years with a variety of coaches.
I have seen photos from other schools where they have dinners with recruits at restaurants littered with school colors, alumnus and boosters. Why aren’t those dinners stopped/prevented by the NCAA?
In regard to the NCAA, when they hand-down such devastating decisions, due process should be met. Otherwise, this is KGB/Gestapo tactics. And I mean that sincerely.
I don't disagree...
but why did they stop having them in Jan. of 2006?
The article I linked in my other piece spells it out pretty clearly…
A Division I compliance director interviewed for the story outlines the infraction as it relates to Papadakis:
“Alumni are not allowed to be involved in the recruiting process,” the source said. “He has a right, if they go there, to use his facility. But to have him involved in the meal, and serving the restaurant, singing and entertaining and dancing, that’s just illegal.”
Papadakis, who lettered at USC in 1970-71, told the Star-Telegram earlier this week that he gives recruits a speech about the significance of the Trojans’ cardinal and gold uniform colors and closes the dining experience by urging recruits to declare, “I want to be a Trojan.”
The CBS Sports Line story quotes Papadakis as saying he called a prospective recruit a “dumbass” if he didn’t go to USC. The player, offensive lineman Jeff Byers, signed with the Trojans in 2004.
“I cringed for the USC people,” the compliance director told the Star-Telegram. “That’s just not permissible.”
The highlighted portion reminds me of the rumors WRT Reggie’s “phone call” to Joe McKnight.
If it was kosher with the NCAA or even the USC compliance office then they would have continued…that appears to not be the case.
I also don’t disagree about the NCAA’s tactics either but, right or wrong, it is what it is. The lawyers will have to handle that now. But I suspect the dinners at the P Taverna are least of the schools worries…
"Mention USC to a Bruin and they get angry; mention UCLA to a Trojan and they laugh."
As of Jan 2006
As of Jan 2006, the compliance office ordered no more Papadakis Dinners because of complaints coming from the Texas media. It was all over the LA Times and such. It went on for a week or two leading up to the Rose Bowl. Do you remember that?
Again, why do other schools still do it? I can’t tell you which schools, but I remember seeing photos of dinners with recruits where the restaurants were full of fans, boosters, alumni and school colors, coming out from the south/southeast.
I do remember it....
So, we change our practices because of what the Texas media says and not the NCAA?
regardless of what the Texas media says, there is still a rule about former alums doing just this. That is what they hit us with.
As for other programs I don’t follow those…I am not in the business of sniffing around what other programs do. Are you saying that there are other former alums of different programs that own restaurants that also hold recruiting dinners?
Small world I guess…
I do not know the rules are WRT boosters being at recruiting dinners but I do know the rules about former alums not being allowed to sway a recruit to attend said school.
The dinners aren’t the problem…it was the restaurant owner and that he was an alum trying to steer recruits to the school that was the problem…
"Mention USC to a Bruin and they get angry; mention UCLA to a Trojan and they laugh."
To be fair
other than telling people to go to USC I have witnessed the events described above at the Taverna as have most people who have visited the place and are not football recruits. I always understood that to be part of the atmosphere they tried to create. Now I know it was just a plot to defy the NCAA. I feel used.
+1
John dances, sings, and mingles with the crowd and talks up USC EVERY night regardless of who is in attendance. The NCAA might be interested to know that the singing and dancing is a part of the atmosphere at many Greek restaurants.
Admit that the rah rah USC speech by a booster was going to far. So, what is that, a minor secondary violation. Big deal. In fact, it was so trivial that it happened for 20 years before anyone even realized it might be a violation.
Just watched video #2; USC must appeal and sue
Wow, can you say “witch hunt”. Lake didn’t know McNair. The frkn investigators were leading Lake in what to say. This is a total fkn railroad.
Anyone who has badmouthed McNair should apologize after watching these videos. And, McNair should sue the NCAA for defamation of character, among other things.
before I launch into a long diatribe
can I ask you guys a question? I just watched both videos, from what I gather the mysterious 2:30 minute phone call was conducted on a night when Reggie was meeting McNair at some club? Reggie had lake with him. I assume the NCAA wants us to believe that in the context of a Hollywood club meetup Lake spilled his guts about paying Bush? And he didn’t even remember the call, and never remembers what was said? I think the NCAA may have proved that McNair met Lake on 2 occasions. I met Reggie’s dad once and talked to him for like 5 minutes. Did I know? By the NCAA standards I guess I did?
On a second note
The report itself said that McNair knew, not that he should have known. These are two different things. Actual knowledge is subjective, its based on the testimony of an individual. The only real way to challenge someone who says they did not have actual knowledge is to have a witness rebut it by saying “I told him” or “I was present when he saw the incident.” In this case no one claims that McNair had Actual Knowledge -not even Lake. He says “he must have known”, not I told him about his arrangement with Reggie. This is a serious error. Lawyer nonsense aside, this is a flat out lie. Heck it may be defamation (not my area of law, but if I recall from law school Defamation arises from someone making false statements that have a demonstrably detrimental effect about another). Had they specifically argued that he should have known - a kind of constructive knowledge it would be different, but then so would, i assume, have been the punishment.
I don't know why that was struck out
I blame my fat fingers.
This is such good practice
Well, that describes common law defamation. Now, McNair is probably considered a “public figure” so under The New York Times v. Sullivan, the Constitutional elements have to be proved by McNair, those are 1) falsity, and 2) fault (malice). Those elements are always tough to prove.a
This is more about practice for me. I hope you don’t mind Ilium.
EGO TROIORUM MALLEUS SUM
by Bruins102NCAA on Jun 12, 2010 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not sure
if the defamation itself can make you a public figure. I seriously doubt that an offensive position coach could be considered a public figure absent the scrutiny of the investigation. I believe the test is whether or not a personal voluntarily puts themselves in the public eye. Like I said this is not my field. You are right though its hard to prove if they are public figure. You might argue that Malice exists in this case due to the intentional knowing misstatement of the facts in an effort to mete out punishment to McNair and his employer. Its debatable. I will say this — we are sounding more and more like that poor guy who got kicked out of his union without fair process.
On a somewhat related note — are you studying for the bar now? If so one word of advice (I hated that test, and my sympathy for its victims outweighs school rivalry) PMBR is worth the money, their multi-state stuff is great, I credit them for passing on the first go round.
Yeah, it's tough
I’m studying for the July test. Great advice, thanks I appreciate that.
EGO TROIORUM MALLEUS SUM
by Bruins102NCAA on Jun 12, 2010 11:14 PM PDT up reply actions
See what's going on here 102?
Good luck getting any meaningful advice from your whacked-out buddies over there.
Still LOCO after all these years
All hail Augustus Kiffin!
M·AGRIPPA·L·F·COS·TERTIVM·FECIT
Yep that the Ncaa I know, Jackasses all of them.
As soon as LL used the word Cause for because they should of shut down that interview, I know any credible Judge would.
Why are there so many Scumbag Fans?
by so.cal.native1952 on Jun 13, 2010 8:24 AM PDT reply actions
Wow
After watching the Loyd Lake videos, all I can say is that you guys got screwed. I cannot imagine someone saying “oh yeah Paterno (or anyone on staff at PSU) knew about all of it, I heard they did, yeah” and the NCAA believing them. Coupled with the NCAA declaring open season for other programs to poach your juniors and seniors, and it seems like someone in Indianapolis sure has it in for USC.
Thank you for recognizing that we're all in this together
Still LOCO after all these years
All hail Augustus Kiffin!
M·AGRIPPA·L·F·COS·TERTIVM·FECIT
Well...
I lived in Los Angeles as a kid and still root for the Lakers and Dodgers, and I’ve always respected USC. I may bleed Blue and White, but I still hope for USC to win and keep up with the Trojans. Except for that Rose Bowl, that sucked. :)
I was there and though sitting in the USC section was surrounded by a contingent of PSU fans. They are fine people, rabid fans and wonderful guests. They loved visiting LA and we did our best to show them they were welcome, as are you.
Still LOCO after all these years
All hail Augustus Kiffin!
M·AGRIPPA·L·F·COS·TERTIVM·FECIT
My friend’s parents made the trip, and they appreciated how the fans in LA made them feel welcome. I was just saying that we wished the game had gone differently. Feel free to come by Happy Valley, we enjoy playing host to great programs with classy fans. I would love a home and home with USC, but we are tied up with Alabama starting this year, and we need a certain number of home games to pay the bills.
I find it intriguing how so many people are happy to dance on our graves
yet not see the bigger picture here.
They are blinded by so much hate and don’t see the ramifications of an unchecked NCAA. They don’t want super conferences, they don’t believe in due process.
This is why I shake my head in disbelief at fans from other schools who are lawyers who can’t see the forest thru the trees on this…they only care that we are taken down with zero regard for the law and how it could affect them later.
there is a lot more to this as the NCAA is trying to make some other moves as well…
So enjoy it now because when the shoe is on the other foot you’ll see why this is so important.
"Mention USC to a Bruin and they get angry; mention UCLA to a Trojan and they laugh."
The ncaa is lucky USC doesn't have a Sam Gilbert type or even their families wouldn't be safe.
Hey uncle Paully can you go see that administrator and show him the photos from the strip club.
Why are there so many Scumbag Fans?
by so.cal.native1952 on Jun 13, 2010 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I just read the top story on BN
Check out this quote from Cassius Marsh, incoming freshman:
“USC was the first school L.A. kids wanted to go to because it had been so dominant,” said Marsh, who will be a freshman at UCLA in the fall. “Now that this has happened those players’ first choice will be UCLA.”
LOL
Another funny quote (from the story BR was reporting from)
“I wish they were able to participate in a bowl game so we could prove a point,” tailback Johnathan Franklin said. “I want them back in the race. I want to play them for something. I would love to beat them and put them out of the Rose Bowl.”
I’m glad Mr. Franklin knew USC was the best team in the Pac-10
by Julio Nievas on Jun 13, 2010 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions
What's more funny about Marsh's claim is..
I haven’t seen any of our committing prospects mentioning they want to check out UCLA…
by Julio Nievas on Jun 13, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Well just like the FAMOUS Cassius
this kid’s got a big mouth.
"Government is the opiate of the masses" Dennis Prager
"I've got blisters on my fingers!!!!!!"
THE NCAA's CASE HINGES ON THE CONTRIVED TESTIMONY OF A GANG BANGING FELON
So does the reputation of the President Sample and his Administration, Mike Garrett, Pete Carroll and McNair. Because of the NCAA’s irresponsibility, The University of Southern California has been smeared relentlessly by the press and slandered those that wish ill on the institution.
The NCAA’s irrational, libelous and unjustifiable behavior must be examined in the Courts.
Still LOCO after all these years
All hail Augustus Kiffin!
M·AGRIPPA·L·F·COS·TERTIVM·FECIT
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