The most outlandish sanction rumors crawling the web - The Trojan Empire
Great read from Anthony!
almost 2 years ago
Paragon SC
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My take
Before the basketball allegations against Mayo and Guillory I would have said that what happened at Oklahoma and Alabama was worse. Guillory changed all of that. We should have known better, and we didn’t take the smart road and send Mayo’s agent to someone else.
That is why they can find USC guilty of “Lack of Institutional Control.” In cases this has led to probation and vacated wins for Oklahoma. I imagine that it could be the same or worse for USC.
There was a postseason ban for the basketball program because basketball had the worst offense. Guillory was determined to be a booster because he steered Mayo to USC. That alone is a huge mistake. Football all depends on whether or not the NCAA finds that USC coaches or administrators had knowledge of what Reggie and his family were up to. To some extent I have heard through the grapevine that there is no way in hell that people could not know that Reggie’s parents were on the take. They travelled to every game and stayed in very expensive hotels. At the very least USC probably turned a blind eye to them and didn’t ask them any questions.
Its my belief that Joe McKnight is dirty. I have no doubt that the car he was driving was only bought for his girlfriend as a gift to him. Proving that might be hard, and it remains to be seen if that was folded in to the Bush-Mayo case.
At the end we are at least on probation and vacating some wins. Worst case we somehow lose a national title, and get a ban on postseason.
I suspect there will be a couple of years of probation
A good middle ground would be vacating a few 2005 wins. They can do to basketball what they will. It makes no sense to hold USC accountable for Bush’e parents actions. 4 reasons:
1. The critical issue is the relationship of Lake / Michaels to USC. As far as I know there is none.
2. “Should have known” was designed to catch situations like the Oklahoma case where an institution turns a blind eye to a boosters actions. In this case an athletes parents took actions in a different city related to a potential pro career. There is no logical connection between USC and the problem.
3. Bush’s parents staying in nice hotels and traveling to games is not the business of the University to police. Nor are the Bush’s required to disclose what they paid and why. How could a university monitor the travel habits of every student athletes family. A better question is why should they, its frankly none of their business.
4. The Bush/ Lake violations provided no material benefit to USC. In fact it could be argued that it may have accelerated his decision to turn pro. Reggie turned pro as soon as he was eligible. There is no allegation that the Lake Michaels plot was designed to entice Reggie to come to USC, really USC is the harmed party in all this, they are faced with stiff penalties for something far outside their control.
That being said the NCAA may do something stupid. However, I will not accept that it is the right thing if they do. The idea of changing history is something that does not sit well, Reggie played in those games and did incredible things that have nothing to do with this scandal. That cannot be rewritten by the NCAA. Additionally its impossible to take away an AP title, so whatever they say, keep the banner flying.
Yes and these days and back then you could get a great deal on flights and hotels.
LA Sports is what keep me off the streets and out of trouble, thanks to all the teams Rams, Dodgers, Lakers, USC sports and the Love of Tennis.
by so.cal.native1952 on Feb 16, 2010 7:03 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with most of what you said
except for #3. If someone is staying at the most expensive hotel in San Francisco, and flying first class to away games, while being witnessed by members of the athletic department, you have to ask yourself how someone is living that high on the hog.
If you saw Reggie’s parents pull up to practice driving a Bentley, would you say that the athletic department has no right to ask them how they could afford such an expensive car?
At the very least, USC turned a blind eye to warning signs that the Griffins were on the take. That’s just my opinion.
I agree with everything else you said though.
Exactly how would members of the athletic department know?
They are not flying first class, they are on a charter and damn busy too. Hell they wouldn’t even be at the same airport. Petty much the same goes for hotels, USC normally doesn’t stay in the same town as most of the fans. Not saying you don’t have some point, one the NCAA surely will question. However it’s a stretch to say the least.
by ev on Feb 16, 2010 9:01 PM PST up reply actions
I've been in 1st class a few times, never paid for a ticket
Usually did it with miles. That said, you honestly want me to believe you flew first class out of San Diego on the same airline, day and time…ok, If you say so. Still doesn’t explain how the USC athletic department was suppose to know, or even better what they were suppose to do about it.
by ev on Feb 17, 2010 9:04 AM PST up reply actions
Quit bragging Para just because your parents are rich and it is Rolls and lear jets the norm for you, HAH.
LA Sports is what keep me off the streets and out of trouble, thanks to all the teams Rams, Dodgers, Lakers, USC sports and the Love of Tennis.
by so.cal.native1952 on Feb 17, 2010 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
I have never been in one but my brother has his best friend run Taylor Made.
Before that he ran Callaway and he had a deal to be able to use the company jet 6 extra times a year.
LA Sports is what keep me off the streets and out of trouble, thanks to all the teams Rams, Dodgers, Lakers, USC sports and the Love of Tennis.
by so.cal.native1952 on Feb 17, 2010 10:26 AM PST up reply actions
On game day
It is fairly typical for planes to be stacked with fans. I don’t care if you believe me or not. You should try flying to and from Arizona on game day and you will probably sit next to Marcus Allen.
Maybe my problem is I don't fly on gameday
except to the Arizona’s and have yet to set next to Marcus. I gave you the benefit of the doubt. However if what you say is true, I can’t see Bush’s parents flying on a lot of gamedays either. Still doesn’t explain how the USC athletic department should have known.
I heard the Ncaa expects a complete daily breakdown on everything a high profile athletes family does.
Yes this does include if it Charmin or Scott and how much they used and stole samples to.
LA Sports is what keep me off the streets and out of trouble, thanks to all the teams Rams, Dodgers, Lakers, USC sports and the Love of Tennis.
by so.cal.native1952 on Feb 17, 2010 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
+1
I still say he was the best all around player in either college or the pros, ever. I was at USC the same time as Marcus, the stories about him and the coeds were legendary!
by ev on Feb 17, 2010 1:50 PM PST up reply actions
I don't know that ucla alum Nestor the mush-room was pretty much the Gold standard.
I hear he had a 12.5 40-time and at 5-3 87lbs what a load, plus he could dunk on a 6ft basket and he once hit the ball to the pitchers mound.
LA Sports is what keep me off the streets and out of trouble, thanks to all the teams Rams, Dodgers, Lakers, USC sports and the Love of Tennis.
by so.cal.native1952 on Feb 17, 2010 3:06 PM PST up reply actions
If the last few years have taught me anything
its that all sorts of people live beyond their means. I remember a few years ago I started seeing people driving around my home town in lamborghinis. More than one. In fact I would see them significantly more often than that I did when I lived in west la. At first I thought that many members of the super-wealthy must have moved to my town. I met some of these people through friends and clients, it turns out many were real estate agents leasing them with commissions, or people who pulled 100k or so out of their house and decided to “treat” themselves to one. A factory service on one of those things costs about 10k and a clutch 50k. People do foolish imprudent things.
Story time aside, If USC had confronted Bush’s folks, and been told to myob what should they have done? What could they have done? The relationship between universities and 3rd parties who influence athletes is tenuous at best. We must remember, none of this is illegal, and Bush’s parents are under no obligation to discuss it with anyone, it only came out because of a breech of contract lawsuit.
I feel if the Parents of an athlete can get anything for there kid is alright, since the Ncaa make so much money on the kids.
If a player is made ineligible by the Ncaa for getting anything for themselves they should sue them, F the Ncaa burn down their offices.
LA Sports is what keep me off the streets and out of trouble, thanks to all the teams Rams, Dodgers, Lakers, USC sports and the Love of Tennis.
by so.cal.native1952 on Feb 17, 2010 10:20 AM PST up reply actions
How do you lose a NC?
The NCAA can’t take what they don’t give never mind the timing isn’t right on the issue. The season is question is 2005, not 2004. Do you realize that outside of Alabama, which did something much worse than anything even claimed about USC, no one has gotten a postseason ban in decades. I also think you are wrong about McKnight. The paperwork he turned over before the Emerald bowl was suppose to show it was a straight up co-sign and his girlfriend has made every payment. We haven’t heard anything either way since so it’s still to be seen, but having a long time boss co-sign a loan does happen a lot in more often than you think. I think it’s almost funny guy in question is actually a UW booster.
There's no way the NCAA can pull it
Maybe the BCS finds a way to do it though. There is no precedent for it, so it remains to be seen. Technically the Heisman Committee could vote on whether to strip Reggie of his trophy, which would also be a first.
Sure the NCAA doesn’t have the power to strip the Heisman and BCS NC from us, but that doesn’t mean other organizations won’t follow suit.
By the way
There are allegations against Reggie go all the way back to before the BCS Championship game against the Sooners in the 2004-2005 season.
The allegations start between the 2004 regular season and the bowl game
Keep this in mind, OU got their wins back as did Georgia Tech. Michigan never even lost theirs. All made the same claim…the school didn’t know and the NCAA agreed. So far there is no evidence that USC knew, not even Yahoo makes that claim. That might not save USC, but they may get them back on appeal like the Sooners did.
I've heard some backroom stuff
about McNair knowing. But who knows if any of that will stick. The only thought that makes sense as to why sanctions could be worse for USC than those that were levied against OU and Alabama is that the Bush case is a big media magnet. Its very public, and they took 4 years to come to a conclusion. Some are of the mind that the NCAA must make an example of USC or they will appear to be too soft. It sucks, it might not be fair, but it could happen.
By the backroom stuff do you mean
Where the Felon claimed to have heard that McNair knew? Because even he backed off of that and now claims that he doesn’t know either way. That was the only person who made that claim. You really need to stop bring up Alabama, it’s not even close. They were found to have actual coaches paying for recruits to come to school. Caught punished and then caught doing it again while on probation! Like I said, not even close. As to the Sooners, they lost 4 total scholarships over two years with two years of probation. If you want to use them, be my guest.
By that I mean
Damning photographic evidence that exists that is not in the press.
I’m not debating on whether OU and Alabama’s offenses were worse or better than the Reggie case. All I’m saying is that the Reggie case is a huge national news story. Outside of Oklahoma, and Alabama, those cases are not as widely known, and most people don’t even know the details of them at all.
The public wants USC to be slammed, and the NCAA knows it. It doesn’t matter if the degree of the infraction is more or less worse than some other institution’s punishment.
I'm not worried about evidence that might not exist
At this point there is no reason to think it might exist. If Yahoo couldn’t find it by now, I doubt it exists. As to the NCAA, I agree they are under a lot of pressure. However like I said, that disappears once the issue hit appeals.
I tend to believe the sources I have
you can doubt all you want. I believe this guy.
You are probably right about the appeals. With luck if we get hit hard, it will get reduced in the appeals process.
neither of those will happen
The Heisman committee isn’t pulling Reggie’s, would mean they would have to pull Woodson’s too and that isn’t happening. They just will not start down that path, too many future potholes if you know what I mean. The Heisman committee has pretty much said they are not going to do anything. As to the BCS MNC, that isn’t happening either. The BCS can’t take it since they don’t actually exist. It’s really the coaches poll trophy and the coaches certainly won’t do it. Again they don’t want to head down that path for the future as much as the past. As an interesting note, when the NCAA took OU’s wins, they didn’t touch their bowl win that season. They said they couldn’t since they don’t have anything to do with the post season. If the NCAA were to take USC’s past wins, they wouldn’t take their BCS game win over OU. How do you take back the BCS MNC title if USC could still count their Orange bowl win over the Sooners? See what I mean?
by ev on Feb 16, 2010 10:12 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
All of this makes sense
and you are probably right, but still the Heisman committee demands that athletes must be in good standing with the NCAA in order to be eligible for the trophy. I agree a retroactive repo of the Heisman is highly unlikely, and without precedent, but not impossible. Maybe the Heisman committee decides to make an example of Reggie.
As far as the BCS is concerned, I do find it highly unlikely that USC could even be stripped of the title. All I am saying is that the extent of this could be a lot worse than what we think it might be.
Hoping for the best though.
It could be and one of the reasons I have always said wait until after any appeal
If the Heisman committed did, what do they do about Woodson? You can’t take one without the other. Woodson and Michigan admitted to him getting thousands in cash and gifts from an agent prior to his senior season, it’s not even questioned. Who do you take it from next? Again, see what I mean? The NCAA could certainly bend to the public call for a lynching, however they still have to deal with an appeal and those demand facts. The NCAA doesn’t want to be made a fool again like with UW and Rick. It works both ways.
it doesn't matter
What Charles Woodson did. No one cares about Woodson. Bush is the story right now. Before this stuff got swept under the rug. No one wanted to deal with it, and I’ll say it again, no one will probably do anything about the Heisman, but its not completely out of the question. Just because something wasn’t enforced in the past doesn’t mean that it won’t be enforced in the future. You can argue that it isn’t fair for Reggie to be held to a different standard than Woodson, but that won’t change the fact that he is still a cheater, and wouldn’t have won the trophy if anyone had known what he and his family were up to.
You can bring up the fact that a heck of a lot of ucla players were paid to play during the Wooden years by Sam Gilbert. But that isn’t a current news story. Its over, and no one is going to be taking any banners down from Pauley Pavilion because of Sam Gilbert.
Actually the Woodson case was huge at the time
and you need to keep in mind it’s been brought up since in connection with the Bush case by the media. No one has forgotten about it and the Heisman committee certainly hasn’t. It’s one of the reasons they have already said they don’t plan to do anything with Bush. The Woodson case is very important, it’s the one that changed why the NCAA handles things differently with agents and boosters. Honestly I don’t care if it’s fair to Reggie or not, only if the NCAA is fair to USC. Reggie be damned. When did I say anything about UCLA or Wooden?
I never said that Woodson wasn't a big story at the time.
I did say that it is not a big story today. The only mention that I have seen has been in the blogs about Woodson. If it was carried by any news organization, then I missed that. All I do know is that I haven’t seen Woodson mentioned in a story involving the Bush case. Not saying it hasn’t happened, just saying I haven’t seen it.
Wooden and ucla was mentioned as an example of NCAA rules and violations in the past that were ignored and never enforced.
Agree with Ev across the board
In commercial law, in lieu of an agreement, you look back at how the parties have conducted business historically. Precedence is critical. There are millions of dollars at stake, and litigation could result from any excessive punishments.
The Woodson case is definitive. It sets precedent. The DAC isn’t going to touch Reggie’s Heisman based on the evidence known to date. The OU case is also critical. The NCAA will not punish SC more severely to placate hater nation. The NCAA judgement must hold up to appeal. The case is very visible in the public. Again, there are millions of dollars at stake. Based on the evidence known to date, USC will not be punished any more severely than OU. The idea that USC will be made an “example of” is inane, IMO. Dead on arrival. The NCAA does not have the power, mission, or legal standing to make an “example of” a powerhouse institution like USC. If anything, the NCAA might be more lenient on USC knowing that their ruling will receive amplified scrutiny. Their ruling will have to be very well-justified and supported to withstand the public scrutiny.
Frak, you say numerous times that you have “heard back room rumors” and that the infractions “could be a lot worse” than we think. Ever stop to think that the rumors are ill-conceived, and that the infractions might actually be less severe than majority opinion?
http://espn.go.com/blog/pac10/post/_/id/7008/a-contrarian-view-on-usc-and-the-ncaa
If you haven’t read it, you might consider the following book:
http://www.amazon.com/Extraordinary-Popular-Delusions-Madness-Crowds/dp/051788433X
This all makes sense
But the NCAA might not care if their case holds up to appeal. I don’t have any information on what the sanctions will be. All I am saying is that I won’t be surprised if they hit us harder than OU and Bama.
As far as my back room source is concerned, its a reliable one. The simple fact is USC players do break the rules, and a lot of them go unreported because usually the people with knowledge of the rule violations don’t want to get their school in any trouble. I know of a Trojan and a bruin that have shaken down their boosters for cash.
The NCAA won't hit USC harder than Alabama
Just the idea is absurd. What Alabama did is so far removed from even the worse claims about USC it’s not even funny. They got busted while on probation for something much worse. Even then, they didn’t get a TV ban, just a lot of lost scholarships and a two year bowl ban (and of course probation). If you really think the NCAA doesn’t care about what will happen on appeal (and just about anything will get appealed), then end of discussion. We will just have to agree to disagree.
Yea its all good
I guess the question for me its whether or not the NCAA will resort to ridiculous measures in order to appear like they are effective at policing their own rules. Legally everything you are saying makes total sense to me. However what makes sense in regards to the NCAA isn’t what always happens.
Frak
I think you are being a bit “chicken little” here.
If the NCAA does the right thing, which is little or no sanctions against USC, Yahoo and a couple of other media outlets will scream for a couple of weeks and then it will all blow over well before next season.
oc phil
Well I happen to know
that the chance of USC people being linked to Reggie is a strong possibility. I am not saying that the sky is falling, only that I will be relieved if its just some vacated wins and probation. You can make all the logical arguments that you want. All I am saying is that the NCAA is nutty, and not always prone to logic or appropriate levels of punishment.
You didn't listen to the comish today did you?
He doesn’t seem too worried about USC’s fate at the hands of the NCAA. Maybe he was pumping sunshine but I kind of doubt it.
by ev on Feb 16, 2010 9:03 PM PST up reply actions
I saw the story
and like I said before, I don’t think it will be that harsh of a punishment. But I will not be surprised if we get hit harder than OU or Bama. I hope you guys are right. I hope the commish is right. All I am saying is that until USC is excluded from involvement in Reggie Bush’s case, the door remains open for some big penalties. No one knows what the NCAA has dug up yet.
I still don't understand why you bring up Alabama
Do you even know what they did? It’s so different it’s not even comparable to USC. The Pac10 comish knows.
there will be a fan post up later this evening about Alabama 2002...
One of the guys from RBR will posting it so stay tuned…
Well the Ncaa better not get to crazy for than the NFL will put together a minor league, like the NBA is doing.
College FB and BB will go the way of College Baseball in the next 6 years in my belief, the Ncaa makes money but the athletics get a ride and nothing else. The end doesn’t justify the means, if LA had a minor league NFL franchise it would make money, especally played on Saturdays or thurdays.
LA Sports is what keep me off the streets and out of trouble, thanks to all the teams Rams, Dodgers, Lakers, USC sports and the Love of Tennis.
by so.cal.native1952 on Feb 16, 2010 2:30 PM PST reply actions
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