Comparing Dynasties - USC vs. The U
Lets have some fun...This will be an interesting comparison but hardly scientific. I wanted to look at this a little more carefully but 'tis the season and there is still much to do with work and such.
I got a real kick out of Watching ESPN's 30-and-30 documentary on "The U."
I thought it was fascinating. Miami was the team that kept me interested in CFB when I first moved to the east coast.
I saw a lot of this team when I moved to the east coast...they were "THEE team". Back then SC wasn't on TV unless it was a bowl game or an ND game. Occasionally they would have the USC/ucla game on but most of time it was ACC/Big East or Miami on TV when I lived in DC.
Miami was an absolute monster program back then. Miami defined the term "reload". They had some of the toughest and nastiest players in Division 1 and they had plenty in reserve. Miami has put a ton of players into the NFL. They hold the record of at least one UM player drafted in the first round for 14 straight years.
After watching "The U" twice I decided to check out the the 'Canes boards for their take. I knew that some of the Miami faithful would not be happy with how the program was portrayed. There were a few things left out (like BC beating Miami or the probation that the program was put on under Schnelly) and few players that weren't interviewed for the piece that played significant roles in the porgram over the years (Jim Kelly, Warren Sapp (he declined), Ray Lewis, Randy Shannon (not allowed by UM) etc). The University of Miami did not sanction or support this piece in any way but regardless of that, the piece was pretty much spot on.
I was curious as to what Miami fans thought bout the piece and in do so I did find one interesting thread over on the 'Canes Scout Board that I thought was pretty thought provoking (I am going to cut and paste a lot of this and jump around a bit).
At first glance who had the better run?
| USC (2002-2008) |
Miami (1986-1992) |
|
| Overall Record | 82-9 | 78-6 |
| Bowl Record | 6-1 | 5-2 |
| MNC's | 2 | 3 |
| Played in MNC Games |
3 | 5 |
Pretty impressive records.
Miami has the better Win/Loss % but USC has a better Bowl record.
The "Played in MNC Games" is a bit misleading because of the fraud that is the BCS coming into the picture after Miami's run and SC being tied to the Rose Bowl.
Some other intangibles (pulled from various posts in the thread but cross checked at CFB DataWarehouse)...
SC went on their run with about 15 fewer scholarships.
Miami's longest winning streak was 29 vs. USC's 34.
USC won 38 straight regular season games while Miami won 35. Miami did not lose a home game in that time frame (they hold the record at 58)
USC in the polls #4 #1 #1* #2 #4 #3 #3 (All AP), 7 straight Pac-10 titles. *33 straight weeks ranked #1
Miami in the polls #2, #1, #2, #1, #3, #1**, #2 (All AP). **20 straight weeks ranked #1 (#2 behind USC's 33 weeks). Miami was independent until they joined the Big east in 1991
SC has a better "OOC schedule" but because Miami was an Independent for most of that time frame they played a lot of tough teams as well but it also looks like scheduled a few non-division 1 schools too.
SC was hamstrung by a weaker than normal Pac-10. It is tough to make this comparison but I still have to lean Miami here. They played a lot of top teams back then and beat a number of conference champions. For the most part they hid from no one...
Home vs. Away games is pretty balanced between the schools.
Miami had a running start for their run with six solid seasons previous to the time frame in question while SC basically had to start from a standstill. This goes to recruiting talent and TV exposure. Miami had their pick of the litter while SC started from scratch...and the first building block for USC was Shaun Cody. Miami was always on TV nationally while SC languished because of Hansen's lack of vision in promoting the Pac-10.
Now this is just a comparison to Miami. You can't ignore what FSU and Nebraska did in the 90's. Both of those programs were incredible as well.
Anyway, I thought this was interesting...so I wanted to throw it out there.
I kind of have to lean towards Miami because they played a lot of tough teams throughout this run. They had some cupcakes here and there but they weren't hampered by a down conference like SC was because USC was so dominant.
I anyone has any more pertinent info please post it up!
So, who was more dominant in your eyes?
1 recs |
10 comments
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Comments
I loved the documentary
the original soundtrack, an obviously intoxicated Bernie Kosar, Jimmy Johnson. If the U does not show this to every prospect they are fools. I say the U — all swagger. You forgot a latent scandal’s category — USC — Reggie Bush’s alleged payments from a shady agent, and Dwayne Jarrett shorting Leinert on the rent vs the U – Member of 2 Live Crew paying players for vicious licks and epic federal grant fraud (I feel the long distance call stuff isd frankly beneath them).
I love USC but did you see the part where the mascot (who appeared to have spent no less than 8 years as Sebastian) stole a fire extinguisher to provide smoke for the team to run through! All other mascots should be ashamed.
by ilium55 on Dec 15, 2009 8:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
That's a tough one...
While Miami does look better on paper, I mean let’s face it, they played in a whole different era. The talent now and then is much different. Players are much quicker, smarter and overall better. I do give credit to Miami as they did play some powerhouses back in the day but Miami played in a time when Lou Holtz was coherent. I’d give it to the Trojans. Barely.
Also, yes, the U documentary was awesome to watch and I’m an FSU fan as well. I hope they do the Noles and Trojans soon!
by FozzyTheGamer on Dec 15, 2009 8:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I loved the Irvin vs Dieon stuff
that video FSU made was pretty funny.
by ilium55 on Dec 15, 2009 8:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Its not even close
USC is by far better. The reason Miami was so successful was because they were so revolutionary in their approach to the game. They were so far ahead of their time in terms of scheme, player development, recruiting, strength and conditioning and coaching. It wasn’t a level playing field. They were so ahead of the curve.
They ran offensive schemes that were out in front of 80% of the rest of college football. Under Erickson they ran a one back, 3 WR offense. That was heady stuff back then and Miami always ran pro style offenses. Most teams would try and defend that with a base 4-3 with OLB lined up on the Miami slot WR. Face palm. Teams played straight man-to-man the entire game and that was a reason why Miami was able to convert a 3rd and 43 against Notre Dame and a 1st and 40 against Texas. If you see their highlight clips from the ’80s you see mediocre NFL wideouts like Thomas, Randall “The Thrill” Hill and Wesley Carroll be streaking wide open down the side lines and through the middle of the field. Nobody ever saw a team with decent talent try and throw the ball. The powerhouses of the day ran the archaic wishbone so teams had no idea of how to defend a moderately complex passing scheme with above average talent. Among other things. Teams were playing high school football schematically. Most teams were football dumb. Miami was football smart. An underrated aspect of Miami’s success. It’s about the Jimmys and the Joes, but Miami never lacked for Xs and Os.
Miami was also so ahead of the curve in strength and conditioning and player development. All of college football focused on just getting bigger and stronger and were obsessed with the bench press.
I remember a much-publicized factoid that was circulated by the press when Miami played Oklahoma, Nebraska, or Texas and the teams and the media pointedout that Miami didn’t have a guy on their team that could bench 400. While OU, NU, or UT had a dozen or whatever. Most teams and the media thought it was an advantage, but Miami players laughed out loud at their ignorance and mocked them. Nebraska’s, OU’s, or UT’s or any other college S&C program was pretty much about lifting. Miami players ran, ran, ran. Up hills. Up staircases carrying irregularly shaped items (anvils, barrels, tires). Pushing cars. Boxing. Carrying teammates. Dragging tires. When they lifted, they focused on power cleans. Functional strength.
While many people like to focus on their great players like Irvin, Bennie Blades, Russell Maryland, etc as the reason for their huge success. That really wasn’t the whole story. The NFL talent gap compared to their major rivals like Notre Dame, OU, Nebraska, and FSU wasn’t that great. They had an edge certainly, but not a huge edge.The reason Miami was so great and dominant was that Miami never had really any weak players and the other teams did. Look at the ‘91 Miami team that destroyed a number 5 ranked Texas in the Cotton Bowl and look at some of their “big” players. They had a great defense filled with NFL stars but their offense was filled with guys who lived on hype and weren’t world beaters. Wesley Carroll (NFL bust), Randall Hill (straight line speed, lifetime #3 or #4 NFL WR), and Lamar Thomas (slow, lifetime #3 NFL WR) didn’t set the NFL on fire. QB Craig Erickson was a NFL bust. But in their system that talent worked even when they didn’t have Michael Irvin and Andre Johnson catching balls. That was the difference, Miami’s scrubs were alot better than everybody else’s scrubs while their stars were relatively equal to everybody else’s.
A reason for their decline was because everybody else started to emulate what they did. Nebraska, Florida, FSU, Alabama, etc. started to copy what they did. Recruit inner city black kids and create a sense of hunger. Focus on speed, speed, and more speed. Throw the ball more than 5 times a game. That is the reason why they never will retain their former glory because every major program is now “The U” in a way. Look at USC, Texas, Florida, Florida State, OU, LSU, ’Bama just switch the uniforms and you essentially have Miami Hurricanes of the ’80s. By that I mean with the type of athletes, players, schemes, coaches and playing philosophies. Just watch a USC game and they play and look like a better version of the U with on the field antics toned down to an extent and with players much better off the field. Hell Pete Carroll is a thinner and better looking version of Jimmy Johnson. This is not a knock on USC. In fact I love USC, it is just that the comparisons are somewhat valid. The other major programs of the day are really no different. Everybody has “swagger” “attitude” “speed” “athletes.”
That is why USC’s run is so impressive. It is a level playing field. Everybody plays the same game now. Everybody tries and recruits the same players and everybody focuses on speed. Its much harder to do what USC is doing then what Miami did because everybody is doing it. Also the coaching is so much better than it was back in the ’80s. If you had the better players you could win most of your games by 30 by running the same play over and over.Just a much tougher and better era than the one Miami was in.
There was a firefight!!!!
by ThePhenomenon on Dec 16, 2009 5:50 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd!!!!!!
You should write this up as a separate Fanpost…is there anyhting else you can add to this?
This is Awesome!
by Paragon SC on Dec 16, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great Stuff Phenomenon
Excellent points. Excellent read.
by Julio Nievas on Dec 17, 2009 12:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Decade Dynasty to the U, 3 Year Streak to SC
This documentary was awesome. Was Kosar drunk or on pain killers? Miami should name their football field after Schnellenberger. That’s what was so awesome is that they came from nothing. It would be akin to SMU or Tulane or Pepperdine becoming a dynasty. Incredible story. I loved them as the underdogs coming from nowhere and then hated then as Convict U.
Although Phenom makes an interesting argument, I have to give the dynasty edge to the U. Top 2 6 out of 7 years with 3 different coaches! But, I give USC the win for best mini-dynasty/streak. Our #1, #1, #2, 33 straight weeks at #1, and 17 seconds from a 3-peat may never be matched again as the best consecutive year streak. But, sadly, our #4, #3, #3 finish with bad losses to Stanford, OSU, and UCLA keep us from matching the U on a dynasty comparison for a longer period.
by DFWTrojan on Dec 16, 2009 11:48 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Hey DFW, I like his guy ThePhenomenon!
I really do. For a Sooner, he’s just awesome. I have a neighbor who’s also a Sooner, and man- those folks from the great State Of Oklahoma have nothing but kindness and respect. (just don’t talk smack, cause they can back you -read: me, UP!
I can’t possibly know enough about CFB to formulate a broad-range of X’s & O’s to be part of this debate. There’s more to the wins/losses- there’s conferences, players, coaches, educational/academic/financial limitations to hold all the variables together, at least for my noggin’.
I enjoy what’s been written thus far, though.
When I think of the ‘Canes, it reminds me of a buddy I once knew here in LA. He played DE and his father owns the Crazy Horse tat-bar off La Brea. He’s a hellcat and the way his body/health looks now (last time I hung out with him was in Summer ‘06)- he just looks tore the f_ck up. So, it reminds me of being ’juiced’, pumped, ripped, and tenacious.
When I think of our mini-dynasty- as you say, it reminds me of Heismans, superior-played football without peer, and Bush-gate. (unfortunately).
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Dec 16, 2009 2:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My buddy/Crazy Horse heir. . .
. . . .wasn’t a starter for the Canes, but he sure played a hella-lot and had his name in the papers for his performances and role in the success of the Miami Hurricanes.
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Dec 16, 2009 2:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
SMU wasn't exactly horrible before the NCAA buried them
[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]
by bluemax on Dec 16, 2009 5:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

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