Matt Hayes tries to set a balance

by DC Trojan on Jan 1, 2009 7:34 AM PST Comment 32 comments

I'm starting to get the impression that Matt Hayes doesn't really like SC all that much. I can understand projecting a Penn State win of 17 - 16 (ignoring that SC doesn't typically score 3 field goals per game) but was the media blow-job in the run-up to the Rose Bowl so bad that today was the day to crack out the secondary lazy meme: USC isn't that good because they keep losing to "inferior" teams.

(I haven't tracked down the on-line version yet, but it's in the web-based paper on page 8.)

On the one hand, Hayes is right - if SC wanted to be in the MNC game under the current system, then they should have won all their games this year. On the other hand, there are two one-loss games playing in the Rose Bowl, and either of them would be a valid and valuable presence in a playoff for a national championship.

There's not much point in re-hashing the bowl versus playoff argument here, but Hayes is having a fundamentally different conversation than the likes of Pete Carroll - the underlying point is not "we got jobbed this season" but "the bowl system routinely jobs good teams who either have one loss or didn't play the "right" schedule."

Does USC belong in this season's MNC game? Not really, under the current rules. Hayes is right, in the narrow reading of the situation. But in taking the chance to hack on SC for what they aren't actually saying, Hayes is taking an easy run at being the contrarian on New Year's Day.

I hope that SC proves him wrong... on the field.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Conquest Chronicles' writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Conquest Chronicles' writers or editors.

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Hayes is a fool...

as he uses flawed logic in a number of pieces.

Heck, I could do as good a job as he does and I could do it for free.

Conquest Chronicles

by Paragon SC on Jan 1, 2009 7:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Or maybe he "likes us so much" he doesn't wanna jinx us?

I remember a few years ago, he was one of the national sports columnists that helped to anoint our “dynasty”. He trumpeted our 2005 team so much, he practically “gifted” our predicted win over Texas. He was wrong. A lot of people were.

Since then, he’s maintained a cautious approach to our seasons and games.

This “outcoaching” article is somewhat of a surprise. Granted, I hardly read the guy . . . I don’t even know who he’s employed with nowadays. (too lazy to go back to the link. I’m “still up” from last night. yup. goodbye single-malts, HELLO! RedBull & Ketel Punch!)

On a different take, I just read a short blurb from ESPN written by Scouts, Inc. One of the more palatable pro-Trojan lead-ups written regarding today’s Rose Bowl game. And it’s quite succinct, I might add.

Fight On!

"I was INVERTED!" -Maverick in Top Gun

by BixBeiderbecke on Jan 1, 2009 11:21 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I know USC only lost one game

But out of the other one loss teams…..their one loss is worse…

The Pac-10 is weak right now. Thats not USC’s fault but when your conference is that weak you can’t lose. Its actually pretty simple…

Also this talk about SC’s defense being one of the best ever is a joke. Don’t get me wrong these guys are amazing but you can’t give up 21 points to OSU IN THE 1ST HALF…then give up another TD late to seal the loss and be expected to be thought of as one of the best. Maybe and i say maybe top 10-15 but not greatest ever…sorry.

When you are an Alabama fan you are expected to hate Auburn, I hate Tennessee because I want to.

by bammer on Jan 2, 2009 12:31 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Take another look

I specifically said that under the current system, SC wasn’t qualified for the MNC. But Carroll’s annual “settle it on the field” discourse is a pro-playoff riff.

As for greatest ever: eh, those kinds of historical comparisons are hard to sustain on grounds of statistical validity. But you can’t cherry pick the outlier game from the whole season and claim that invalidates the aggregate numbers.

by DC Trojan on Jan 2, 2009 12:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah you can...

You can’t be the best one day and not the next…The best ever in a season includes ALL the games. Pitching shut outs against terrible teams isn’t all that great of an accomplishment….Your defense is great but its a joke to compare them to the all timers..

When you are an Alabama fan you are expected to hate Auburn, I hate Tennessee because I want to.

by bammer on Jan 2, 2009 12:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Statistics are not a beauty pageant

The one thing, above all, that drives me over the fucking cliff about college football is the beauty pageant mentality. Either the season stats end up showing that SC has a good defense, or they do not.

If you want to dismiss the season based on the Oregon State game, knock yourself out. I don’t watch college football so I can act like it’s ice dancing.

by DC Trojan on Jan 2, 2009 2:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

DC Trojan is right

You can go through any teams stats and cherry pick statistics to support your claims. It doesn’t really prove anything, but you’re welcome to do it as much as you want. Also, I would watch out how much trash you talk about SC’s D beofre you guys play yuour bowl game. I’m not saying Bama is going to lose, and for the record I don’t think Alabama is going to lose, but you just never know.

by Laughing Stock on Jan 2, 2009 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Whoah

Sorry about the grammar/readability, I was typing way too fast.

by Laughing Stock on Jan 2, 2009 3:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t think that Utah’s going to be able to hang on, but that first quarter at the Sugar Bowl would be a ripe cherry, statistically speaking.

by DC Trojan on Jan 2, 2009 6:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

How can you support a claim that the SEC is so dominant when:

Alabama loses to a mountain west team.
LSU almost loses to Troy
Georgia gets beat by Georgia Tech
Auburn 3-2
Ole Miss clocks Florida at home

All the Pac-10 did in bowl games was knock off BYU, Pitt, Oklahoma State, Penn State, and lowly Miami for a 5-0 record.

At least Georgia and LSU showed up in their bowl games. But Bama just got hit with the worst side of a no win situation. If they win, no one cares because they were supposed to. If they lose then they are just humiliated.

The SEC has 1 or 2 good teams, and a bunch of mediocre ones. The Pac-10 has the same.

by frak on Jan 2, 2009 9:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, but ...

“Alabama loses to a mountain west team.”
The same one that beat Oregon State.

“LSU almost loses to Troy”
But didn’t. And annihilated Georgia Tech.

“Georgia gets beat by Georgia Tech”
A GT team that, before getting annihilated by LSU, was a Top 15 team.

“Auburn 3-2”
Auburn is probably the eleventh- or twelfth best team in the SEC right now. You really want to be judged by Washington?

“Ole Miss clocks Florida at home”
Just like they clocked Texas Tech in Dallas.

“All the Pac-10 did in bowl games was knock off BYU, Pitt, Oklahoma State, Penn State, and lowly Miami for a 5-0 record.”
BYU was overrated — and I’ve been saying that for weeks. Pitt was an okay win, I guess, though Oregon State scored fewer points against them than Syracuse. The Oklahoma State and Penn State wins are good. “Lowly” Miami is right — they don’t even know how to run a two-minute drill right now.

I still believe Alabama is a good team. The SEC also has Florida, Ole Miss and Georgia — all good teams — and LSU, which is probably a little bit above average.

I don’t think the SEC is dominant this year — I’ve been saying for weeks that it’s an off year, and I can provide dozens of links if you want. But you’ve got to have a bit stronger case than that when trying to discuss the league’s strength.

Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.

by cocknfire on Jan 2, 2009 11:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Overrated

Lsu, Georgia, Bama, Auburn, Tennesse, Vandy- Oregon would probably beat any of these teams.

Florida is probably the best that you guys have.

I’m sorry but with all due respect, Bama is the most overrated team in the country right now. Florida rode that win over them to the championship game, and then Utah hands them their ass.

I agree the Washington schools were just god awful. The difference is that Auburn was in the top 15 this year, Washington and WSU were in the bottom 15.

by frak on Jan 3, 2009 12:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes and no

Auburn was horribly overrated to begin the season — I don’t think anyone can argue with that. But they’re still one of the worst teams in the league, so the Washington analogy works. As far as that goes in determining the SEC’s current worth, it doesn’t make a dime’s worth of difference where they were preseason unless they were a horrible team and better than the other teams in the league. They clearly weren’t.

Tennessee was horrible — no question. Vandy was lucky in at least three of its seven wins. I said LSU was “probably a little bit above average” — I wasn’t even willing to call them “good.” All those teams would probably lose to Oregon. Bama and Georgia, I’m not so sure about — but they would both have a game on their hands, no doubt.

Listen, the SEC was overrated preseason. No one with any rationality can argue that point. That doesn’t mean they’re overrated now. With all due respect, I think if the Pac-10 and the SEC matched up with their ten best teams, it would be a very close contest. (You wouldn’t get to play Auburn or Mississippi State, which are just terrible teams.) Florida-Southern Cal? Good game. Alabama-Oregon? Maybe an edge to Oregon. Ole Miss-Oregon State? Good game. Cal-Georiga? Good game. Arizona-LSU? Slight edge to Zona. Arizona State-South Carolina? Who knows; depends on which South Carolina shows up — the one that played in the Outback Bowl would lose; the one that defeated Ole Miss would win. Vandy-Stanford? Probably Stanford, though every time I say Vandy will lose, they win. Kentucky-UCLA? About even. Arkansas-Washington State? Arkansas. Tennessee-Washington? Even the Vols could win that one.

Oh, and I’m not one of those people that reflexively thinks the SEC is the strongest conference. Last year, I openly floated the idea that the Pac-10 might have been better, at least in the regular season, than the SEC. And I think this year the Big XII is at least as good if not better — I want to see how Oklahoma does Florida.

Conference strength is cyclical; no one is always stronger. (This is the mistake that a lot of SEC fans make.) The Pac-10 had a good year this year, but I’d take the SEC.

Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.

by cocknfire on Jan 3, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

All good points

Its a hard pill to swallow to admit that the Pac-10 had a terrible year, and it basically cost USC a shot at the title game. The week 3 meltdown against the Mountain West was the kicker. That is what made the Oregon State loss unrecoverable. Its not the SEC’s fault, but the simple fact is they always seem to have the same teams in the preseason top 25. Auburn, Tennessee, LSU, Florida, Georgia, and now Alabama. What I saw of the Alabama bowl game is that their defense was highly suspect, and their offense was anemic to say the least. If that is the 2nd best team in the SEC, then it takes a lot of wind out of the sails of the SEC.

by frak on Jan 4, 2009 12:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks

QUESTION 1: Given a month to prepare, pick ANY team in ANY conference that would beat USC? And why? (that’s a trick question, if you didn’t know already? mind you. . . we took our foot off the pedal in the Rose Bowl, just saying . . .)

QUESTION 2: Why is it that quality cats like you seem to be “honest” on non-SEC/non-Big 12 sites when discussing the merits, abilities, strengths, weaknesses, and overall competitiveness of the PAC 10, yet seem to be (not "dishonest") rather- highly critical of the EXACT SAME teams, players, and venues when discussing such things on SEC/Big 12 sites? (I’m being serious cocknfire! I’m not joking with this one, it’s quite a mystery to me, if not many of us here on the West Coast)

QUESTION 3: What’s the REAL reason teams from the SEC schedule TOTALLY INCONSEQUENTIAL and MASSIVELY OVERMATCHED opponents for their early season OOC games? (another trick question. no hints this time)

QUESTION 4: Is the South Carolina Gamecocks TRULY the real USC? (more funny, than serious. but still. . . .if you will?)

"I was INVERTED!" -Maverick in Top Gun

by BixBeiderbecke on Jan 4, 2009 12:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I would like to see

USC play Oklahoma, Florida, Texas, and Utah. Right now I don’t think any of those teams could beat us, except for maybe Utah. Utah showed that they can play a lock down defense against the #2 SEC team. They allowed a 52 yard field goal, and a touchdown off a turnover in their own red zone.

Florida, Texas, and Oklahoma all have great offenses, but can they play defense? Not as good as us I’m willing to bet. I would think that Texas, and Florida would have the edge because of their QB mobility. Bradford is no stick in the mud, but McCoy and Tebow are quicker on their feet.

by frak on Jan 4, 2009 10:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Great answers frak

And what’s so weird is, I would tend to agree with ALL of ’em. Florida is THE MYSTERY SPOT for me (and lordy, lordy, lordy! something about the words “mystery” and “spot” each out there on their own? and putting them together like that? YOWZERS!!!)

I tend to think both our lines on Off and Def are unstoppable when pressed, readied, and have the right gameplan. Those guys right there played their asses off. Honestly, Utah is quite a team this year- but of their 4 wins over ranked opponents this season- 1 was against BYU and the other was against Michigan (an early season and VERY GENEROUS #23 that lost their “HotRods” and petered-out to some Div IAA school the remainder of their season). I’m not convinced they can seriously put up numbers on us like they did in their stupefying beatdown on the Tide.

We’d scheme and match up well with OK and Teh-Hass, but did you see what happened to T-Tech in that Ol’ Miss game? If there seems to be a “Gay League” out there right now? I’d say, “Pssst! Don’t look now. . . . but when you get a chance? . . . .Look over there. . . .No, no, no! Not right now dude! They’re lookin’ over here, wait a second or two. . . .So anyway. . . Look at THE BIG 12! . . . .And you tell me? . . . Quick. . . .what are they? . . .Guys . . .or girls?. . . . " (If T-Tech squeaked by the Longirls, and the Longirls did the "OK-shuffle” on the Sooners, and Stoops was given the “OK” to walk all over Leach’s man-bits. . .? Not to mention Leach “bein’ easy” with Ol’ Miss? That just tells me something’s gay over there. (in a funny way, not mean one. anyway???)

I think it would be great to have ALL THOSE HEISMAN candidates line up against us. I’d welcome it, and yet- with a month for BigBallsPete . . .I’d bet the house ON US!

SEC, Mountain West and the Big 12 be damned!

sidenote: oooooooooh I wanna get a cocknfire response! don’t get me wrong, I liked yours quite a bit. but if it’s all the same? i almost CAN’T WAIT for something from him.

"I was INVERTED!" -Maverick in Top Gun

by BixBeiderbecke on Jan 4, 2009 1:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Answers

1. I’m not sure anyone would … oh, wait a minute! What’s that team? Rose Bowl? Three years ago??? This isn’t really the point to me, though. One of the reasons I don’t like a playoff is that I hate teams winning because they “get hot at the right time.” Granted, that could be exacerbated a bit in the BCS — but at least the team that got hot is a credible champion (usually No. 2, and hard to say why not No. 1, other than “the other guy’s better”), not the 8 seed.

2. I think if you were to look back through the archives at Team Speed Kills, I’ve been pretty blunt that the SEC is having an off year. I said sometime in 2007 (I don’t remember when) on my other blog, Garnet and Black Attack, that the Pac-10 might be better than the SEC. I’ll admit that I don’t care much for Southern Cal, but it’s got to do more with the fact that they had the dynasty thing going for a few years, and now they’re prohibitive No. 1 favorites at the beginning of each season, followed by the inevitable “huh?” loss, followed by the inevitable winning streak, followed by the inevitable “they’re playing better football than anyone else in the country,” followed by the inevitable preseason No. 1 ranking, followed by, followed by, followed by. I don’t know that it’s the Trojans themselves that bother me — I do think you guys should have been in the championship game in 2003, so you could have been defeated by LSU ;) — so much as the phenomenon that surrounds them. That’s what the GREAT AND POWERFUL TROJANS line that you referred to on TSK was all about — the way ESPN and others fawn over Southern Cal.

3. I’m not sure what you’ve got in mind, but it’s mostly gate and to have easy teams on the schedule. And I’ve always been critical of this practice. I hate watching an SEC team take on a weak mid-major or FCS team. Hate it hate it hate it.

4. We were chartered in 1801. You guys were founded in 1880. We are the real USC.

Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.

by cocknfire on Jan 6, 2009 5:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you!

Thank you, thank you.

Great answers, great digs! That’s what this is really all about.

Appreciate it cocknfire!

"I was INVERTED!" -Maverick in Top Gun

by BixBeiderbecke on Jan 6, 2009 7:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No NO NO We don't have to have a stronger case, I really don't care about your Shize koff opinion.

Paul D. Kelley

by so.cal.native1952 on Jan 3, 2009 2:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I like people who back up their opinions with fact

Good job there.

Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.

by cocknfire on Jan 3, 2009 2:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't care do get that are you just ?

Paul D. Kelley

by so.cal.native1952 on Jan 3, 2009 4:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

correction, it really doesn't matter noyhihg you can say would ever change my mind!

Paul D. Kelley

by so.cal.native1952 on Jan 3, 2009 4:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

take it easy

all opinions are welcome if they are rational and respectful…

Conquest Chronicles

by Paragon SC on Jan 4, 2009 1:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

For the record though

I respect your opinions on the whole SEC vs Pac-10 question. I just believe that the SEC will always get more credit for winning and less punishment for losing than the Pac-10, whether they deserve it or not.

by frak on Jan 4, 2009 12:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

What's the deal lately?

First we get bammer no we have this cocknfire guy. I am sorry brother, but how can you say you “like people who back up there opinions with fact” when all you have done is state opinions like they are fact? Plus you use some crazy reasoning when you basically say that Georgia isn’t that bad because they lost to a top 15 GT team just after you mention that an “above average” LSU beat the very same Georgia Tech making LSU not all that bad. You can argue one way or the other, but you really can’t argue both because its logically inconsistent.

You’re welcome to run around other’s sites spewing nonsense about which conference is best or worst or overrated or underrated, but what exactly are you trying to prove? I can’t speak for everyone, but I am pretty happy about SC’s season and I have no need for some guy whose goal is apparently to run around trying to diminish the accomplishments of other teams and conferences. I guess though that all SCAR has got going for them is the fact that they’re in the SEC, so I guess that explains it.

by Laughing Stock on Jan 3, 2009 10:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

While I don't necessarily agree with him here

Cocknfire is actually one of the good ones. He took on BN in the off season so that earns points here.

he runs an SEC centric blog so it shouldn’t surprise us of his partisanship. I am fine with outside opinions when they are put forth here on CC in a measured and respectful tone.

We should also be respectful of our guests who take the time to post here with rational opinions, we don’t don’t have to agree but we should be respectful when we disagree…

Conquest Chronicles

by Paragon SC on Jan 4, 2009 1:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, he sure did

If I’m not mistaken, that was over at. . . .yup, yup- SMQ! (and the whole Menalaus-eating-lotsa-sh_t over the “fUcla Expectations” column SMQ wrote. . . .the BN just got “lit up”. . . . . . NOW I remember! . . .what the? . . . . this is just one trip-ass New Year’s weekend. . . . .)

"I was INVERTED!" -Maverick in Top Gun

by BixBeiderbecke on Jan 4, 2009 1:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry

I wasn’t trying to be disrespectful. More exasperated than anything else.

by Laughing Stock on Jan 4, 2009 3:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Shout out to: cocknfire

I apologize if what I’m about to link here offends anyone or appears as a “flame”, truse me, that was and is NOT my intention. But, our friends cocknfire wrote a few things I felt needed responding to over at his Team Speed Kills blog.

Here it is. (read down to the very end today’s Jan. 5th comments from me)

ParagonSC, have I gone too far? Your opinion on this is valued. I don’t wanna start any crap with anyone, I feel- at this point- I don’t quite know?

"I was INVERTED!" -Maverick in Top Gun

by BixBeiderbecke on Jan 5, 2009 5:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs