Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Missouri Survives Scare, Louisville And Marquette Roll

The Ornstein Angle

It hard not to miss all the speculation around the whole Bush mess with the book about to be released and the website now launched. A lot of SC fans are taking a wait and see attitude before passing judgment while others are letting their thoughts be known about the whole sorted mess. Most fans have taken the attitude that if SC didn't know than how can they be punished and many point to the similar problem that Charles Woodson at Michigan went through s he was leaving school. I think that approach is fool hardy and people should be prepared for the worst.

I would prefer to take a wait and see approach but the more I read the more it's hard to ignore the hurricane that is about to come. As I said earlier in the comments section here the relationship with Mike Ornstein troubles me more than the Bush family being involved with New Era. SC and the NCAA knew and approved of Bush working for Ornstein so it would have been their responsibility to monitor their relationship in order to keep an eye out for any funny business. When Ornstein was fired by Bush it signaled an interesting turn of events as to how Bush was going to fight the allegations of this whole situation.

Ornstein obviously wanted Bush to settle so that Bush's image wouldn't be tarnished and it was clear that if Bush settled Ornstein wouldn't be exposed as to being involved in any wrongdoing. Obviously Ornstein wants to be able to keep a good relationship with USC and this situation could threaten that if he was complicit in any money changing hands with the Bush clan. This is where SC gets hurt because the NCAA could determine that SC should have known and that is where they can rule against SC.

The copies of the receipts allegedly showing where Ornstein paid for Bush's parents to fly to Berkeley to me is more damning, Ornstein should have known better and that will be difficult for him to explain away and that is where SC will get hurt. Lloyd Lake and his ilk may be the face of this mess but Ornstein has his own checkered past and his actions could do more to hurt SC than anything Lake and his crew could dream up. Lake is a pariah no doubt but while we are busy wagging our fingers at him very little is being said about Ornstein who I feel is just as bad and he may have done more behind the scenes to hurt SC than anything else that has been alleged.

It's clear that Bush could care less about SC; his unwillingness to settle with Lake opened the door for all that we are seeing now. Bush's attorney is more concerned about the possibility of Bush being the victim of extortion, which is why they chose to fight Lake on this issue. But to me they have missed the boat because Bush's image is already tarnished, and he will be forever known for this mess. With Bush's NFL career lack luster at his point and with his college career long since being finished this is what Reggie's will be remembered for. SC's image is tarnished and the fans are now angry and embarrassed.

My anger is less about the money that has allegedly changed hands than the smugness in which Bush is putting forth. People make mistakes and I can see how easy it is to be tempted so most decent people would forgive certain crimes of the heart, but to continue to act in such a way that embarrasses the school and spits in the fans faces to me is abhorrent. I am prepared for the sanctions that, in my eyes, are sure to come but if the sanctions are in reference to Ornstein SC will only have itself to blame because they didn't monitor that situation more carefully.

Where it goes from here is anybodies guess.

Comment 15 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

More from Conquest Chronicles

Under Press

Jul 2008 by Paragon SC - 1 comment

Cry Me a River Part II

Feb 2008 by Paragon SC - 4 comments

Who Really Cares?

Jan 2008 by Paragon SC - 18 comments

Around SB Nation

Comments

Display:

Ornstein is a Pontiac game-changer, so to speak
I've written elsewhere that the connection between Bush and New Era is a difficult enforcement issue, IMHO, for the NCAA because it was sub rosa and deeply unofficial. It's hard to monitor something that you don't know about, after all.

But you're right about Ornstein - that's a substantively different enforcement question. That's a working relationship that was known, and supposedly monitored.

Both Ornstein and New Era were doing something qualitatively different from the traditional booster incentives to stay at a given college - if anything, they were an incentive to leave at the first opportunity.

But that's a rhetorical nicety - long story short, it looks like there was an oversight failure when it came to the relationship between Ornstein and Bush.

That's something substantive for the NCAA to act on. I suppose the severity of how they react will depend on whether they take a narrow view - punish for the failures of what SC should have been monitoring closely - or an expansive view - punish SC for everything that they didn't detect.

Nothing to do but wait and see, I suppose.

by DC Trojan on Jan 14, 2008 8:37 PM PST reply actions  

How about this for oversight?
Did you hear about "Woodengate" yet. The "warriors" over at BN (Meriphoney, TieDyeGuy, etc) are all up in arms over the NCAA "investigating" contact between Coach Wooden and (high-schooler) KLove last year.

They've all got their underwear tied-up in a massive wad because of our "situation" regarding Bush. Their take: "How can N(ever) C(atch) A(nyone) at A(nything) be investigating our Saint? What about the criminal Reggie Bush?"

It's hilarious!

Note to BN: it's called K-A-R-M-A.

by tapoutstylist on Jan 15, 2008 10:40 AM PST up reply actions  

Its not about them
My response to bruins that are up in arms over Reggie is that your poop stinks just as much as ours.  Other than that, who really gives a rip what they think.  

by frak on Jan 15, 2008 10:46 AM PST up reply actions  

True . . .
. . .it isn't about them, or what they think. I emphatically agree.

It's more of a poetic justice type-thing, considering their USC hard-on-of-hope in seeing us go down. They're pre-occupation with our program and institution is beyond comprehension. Therefore, having circumstances come from left-field at their alleged transgressions is delightful. In a Trojan-kinda way.

They're so convinced of "conspiracies", they're even using "timing" (read: upcoming bball game and RBush publication) as talking points. ?????

I laughed. I yawned. I posted. (already in my rearview mirror)

by tapoutstylist on Jan 15, 2008 10:52 AM PST up reply actions  

I did see it
and it is funny to see them all up in arms over it. it is probably nothing but one can never know when it comes to the NCAA. If SC gets out of this Bush mess unscathed just imagine the outrage over there... now that will be fun to watch.

agree with Frak no one is perfect, so worry about your own house before worrying about others.

by Paragon SC on Jan 15, 2008 10:53 AM PST up reply actions  

How to monitor
All you can really do is look at Reggie's timecards, and make sure he was doing the work he was supposed to be doing.  Even if Ornstein is funneling cash to the Bush's I seriously doubt he would produce evidence to that fact to USC upon request.  Even if, and it is an "if" USC knew nothing, I really don't understand why the hell they allow their kids to work for agents.  It seems like sending them into an environment where they are bound to be tempted by people that have absolutely no regard for NCAA rules and regs.

by frak on Jan 14, 2008 11:58 PM PST reply actions  

Bingo!
As usual dead on.

why would anyone allow a star player to intern for an agent is beyond me. Talk about temptation!

You are right that the only monitoring could be the time cards and pay stubs but with Ornstein's background it doesn't take a genius to figure out that may want to keep a closer eye on those relationships. I'm not saying breach peoples privacy but keep an eye on it.

As for documentation you are again right, Ornstein wouldn't produce it asked but when his flunky did it for him and when said flunky kept a copy and passed it on to the authors of the book thats all the proof anyone needs that these guys shouldn't work for agents in ANY capacity. He left a papertrail and now its coming back to bite us.

by Paragon SC on Jan 15, 2008 7:45 AM PST up reply actions  

While I don't condone what Bush did
I was shocked by the lack of evidence posted on the website for the book. I have long believed that Bush should have settled this matter. However in light of the "evidence" I viewed I think some perspective is necessary. The only two items directly linking Bush to payments to Lake and Ornstien made prior to Graduation are a couple of Hotel/ Flight reciepts. The bush camp claims that the payments were a favor, and that the money was paid back. This was not a great deal of money, less than four thousand dollars, I would be shocked if that results in increased penalties. While the NCAA is a bit strange they cannot act in a totally capricious manner (or they open themselves up to litigation by member institutions). As far as interning at Ornstiens office, I think I heard that players from other institutions were interning at the same time -- if its a common practice you cannot punish USC.
I can understand why Bush and his attorneys chose to fight the issue the documentary evidence is very weak, most of the claim revolves around the word of a man with questionable character and lots of money to gain. Additionally, none of the evidence implicates USC (in my opinion at all) prior to the 2005 season (except claims made by Lake) no documents refer to 2004 or 2003 (of those published). If they take Bush's Heisman, its his own fault, but I think the national championships should be safe.

by ilium55 on Jan 15, 2008 9:19 AM PST up reply actions  

Fair points

But in following that line of thinking if they could afford a measly $4,000.00 to pay Ornstein back then why couldn't they pay the rent on the house in SD?

I'm pretty sure you can't accept ANY money from an agent, even if you paid it back, for the obvious reasons. I can see where some feel that there is a lack of evidence in regards to USC knowing and that's fine. But lets not parse whether or not the money was paid back. It should have never been loaned or accepted to begin with.

Again the NCAA's evidentiary threshold is lower than is required in a court of law. And the NCAA might be looking to add a little spice to their punishment because of all the foot dragging in all this and if it's found that the coaching staff knew and did nothing  then it could get real ugly.

Yes, other players have interned for Ornstein but none of those have been implicated in accepting money and I am not aware that any of them signed with Ornstein.

by Paragon SC on Jan 15, 2008 10:48 AM PST up reply actions  

Its a question of remedies
I agree its a violation to accept money and pay it back -- but how much of one? If they want to issue a statement chastising Bush, fine. I do not think that the NCAA can forefit a season for a team because one player may have asked for an innapropriate favor from an agent. The NCAA is not above the law -- it is an organization created by the consent of its members -- its a big contract agreement, if they deal with USC in a way which is unusual they open themselves up to litigation. I wish none of this had ever happened, but I was assuming that Lake had documents that really put it to Bush, like letters asking for money or contracts with his signature. If he produced all he has for the book everyone should take a step back and really look at the evidence behind lakes claims.

by ilium55 on Jan 15, 2008 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

I believe that Mercedes Lewis
Also interned with Ornstein.  I guessing it's a propular internship choice for the elite athletes.

I'm guessing the logic of allowing players to intern with agencies is that since agents are "Sports Business Professionals," and since many athletes, especially the elite athletes, are going to make a career in professional sports, it's no different than offering internships with the LA Times for a journalism student.  That's the logic.  And Ornstein was considered one of the more reputable agents, though that says more about the sports representation industry than Ornstein.

As I said before, the reality is that nothing can come good when dealing with agents.  Nothing.  Not sports agents, Hollywood agents, real estate agents (Have you heard the RE Max radio commercials: "Buy now, because housing prices are going up, up and up!").  Nothing.

by Zoulou on Jan 15, 2008 9:20 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree
agents usually complicate things, especially with regards to sports and Hollywood. However there may be some utility in atheletes interning with agents -- maybe it makes them better consumers of thier services in the future. Internships are about preparing people for thier lives after college.

by ilium55 on Jan 15, 2008 9:55 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm confused
I'm going into this post knowing that there are a host of complex and complicating issues that are out of all of our respective purview. But I can't understand how Ornstein is tied to the Lake/Michaels/New Era issue? I understand that RBush "worked as an intern" during his academic/scholarship years while attending USC. It is also my understanding that this was done under the auspices and approval of USC academic oversight- as well as other "athletic department monitoring/advising" personnel. Indeed, the timeframe of said internship occurred in and around the time that RBush was supposedly involved with Lake and Michaels- hoping to launch a "business endeavor" in the near future, when his eligibility for sport at USC expires/relinquished.

That being said, and after reading that Ornstein has already been quetioned through subpoena back in late 2006, what- if anything, can be gained through legal knowledge that hasn't already been discussed/questioned in 2006 that has any ties to Lake/Michaels/New Era? Honestly, I'm not being facetious here, I'm thoroughly confused as to

  1. any connection (through hard or evidentiary data)
  2. corroboration
  3. association
as it applies to Yaeger's "Tarnished Heisman" publication and the Lake-Michaels issue?  

As I stated earlier, I realize there are probably documents, interviews, and depositions (Ornstein's because he was subpoenaed- if not deposed for questioning, he MUST HAVE already given sworn testimony of some sort, no?) that haven't been brought to the public light as yet, but I'm finding it difficult to believe that the NCAA or grand jury testimony hasn't FOUND ANYTHING YET with regards to impropriety between Reggie Bush and Mr. Ornstein.  

by tapoutstylist on Jan 15, 2008 5:51 AM PST reply actions  

there is no connection
between Ornstein and New Era, they are separate but There is documentation That shows Ornstein paid for Bush's parents to fly to Berkeley, it on Yaeger's website. It may not be a connection to the New Era Crew but it would show me that there is a pattern of potential wrongdoing and the NCAA does not like patterns.

I am not aware that Ornstein was deposed, maybe he was, but regardless the threshold of evidence is much lower for the NCAA than it is in a court of law and that is all I care about. Bush and New Era can slug it out in court all they want but the NCAA doesn't need much to see there is a problem here.

Just settling with Lake would have only fixed part of this. The minute that Ornstein had his associate pay for those tickets it opened up a whole other can of worms, one that is far more damaging because of Ornstein's "relationship" with the school.

Where the Bushes could have fixed this is to show where they reimbursed Ornstein, it wouldn't have looked good but at least the effort to repay Ornstein would have gone a long way to showing that they weren't on the take. Of course if they couldn't pay "the rent" on their house how could we expect them to pay Ornstein back. The rental agreement doesn't do them much good either, heck even I could draw one up on my Mac. If they had at least made a payment or two and then fallen behind you could then show that they were in financial trouble and reached out out of desperation but they didn't even attempt to make a payment which only shows that they were probably on the take.

by Paragon SC on Jan 15, 2008 8:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Thanks Paragon
I got it now.

Whew, I'm hoping all reimbursements towards Ornstein are "clean" and on the up and up (qualify as inconseqeuntial/insignificant). My only hope lies in the fact that it's taken 14 months so far for the authorities? (who subpoenaed Ornstein back in Nov. 2006) to digest and scour testimony/evidence and they haven't pressed any charges or allegations of impropriety thus far.

We all know how "efficient" these bodies are?

Thanks for the clarification.

by tapoutstylist on Jan 15, 2008 8:12 AM PST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Conquest Chronicles the SB Nation blog about the USC Trojans.

Community Guidelines

Managers

Images_small Paragon SC

Avatar2_small DC Trojan