Lots of jealousy out there now
by USCLink on May 30, 2007 5:41 PM PDT
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PrintFirst, Stewart Mandel discusses bushgate, in a non-too flattering light. That's not really a huge deal. He's drawn his conclusions, and anyone reading the mailbag already has theirs anyway. It would be nice to see some of the evidence he discusses, but long story short, it seems fairly obvious something shady went on.
Kevin, over at fanblogs.com, stirs the pot too, asking "Does USC get a free pass on discipline?" He then takes the list of transgressions more or less directly from BN, throws them all out there, and says discuss.
My problem with Kevin's piece, is that what he fails to mention, is that some, if not most of the issues were dealt with. Eric Wright was dismissed from the University. Dwayne Jarrett DID pay rent, not fair market value, but its not as though Matt was trying to secure his commitment to USC.
Kevin's list is as follows:
2001 - Pete Carroll hired by USC.2003 - USC OT Winston Justice plead no contest to solicitation of a prostitute.
2004 - USC OT Winston Justice was arrested on suspicion of felony assault with a deadly weapon - plead no contest.
2004 - USC RB Hershel Dennis investigated for an alleged sexual assault. Suspended for "breaking team rules".
2005 - USC CB Eric Wright was arrested for investigation of sexual assault.
2005 - USC CB suspended three semesters after police found 136 Ecstasy pills in his apartment
2005 - USC TE Dominique Bird gets a broken jaw in a fight with WR Steve Smith
2005 - USC DE Frostee Rucker investigated for spousal battery
2005 - 10 USC players investigated for hazing QB Mark Sanchez
2005 - Several players investigated for damage to dorms following a fight among players
2005 - USC RB LenDale White simulates suicide by throwing a tackling dummy off a building in view of the team as a "prank" devised by White & Carroll
2005 - USC players accused of pushing Washington State Head Coach Bill Doba before halftime
2005 - USC LB Rey Maualuga arrested for misdemeanor battery after punching a man at an off-campus Halloween party
2005 - USC QB Matt Leinart is ruled ineligible briefly by the NCAA after an ESPN TV promotion
2006 - Football team investigated for recruiting violations in visits to Papadakis Taverna
2006 - USC QB Matt Leinart was cited by the Pac-10 for illegal workouts at USC
2006 - USC DE Frostee Rucker charged with two misdemeanor counts of spousal battery and two counts of vandalism from the 2005 beating of his girlfriend
2006 - USC RB Reggie Bush and his family investigated for improper gifts and benefits
2006 - USC QB Mark Sanchez was arrested for investigation of sexual assault
2006 - USC WR Dwayne Jarrett investigated for failing to pay rent
2006 - USC DBs Brandon & Ryan Ting quit the team under allegations of steroid use
2007 - A federal investigation revealed tapes regarding USC RB Reggie Bush and his family allegedly extorting $280,000 in cash, rent and gifts while he was playing football for USC.
2007 - USC LB Clay Matthews created a racist Facebook group called "White Nation". The group was joined by USC players David Buehler, Brian Cushing, Dan Deckas and Dallas Sartz.
2007 - USC compliance officials investigate illegal recruiting of RB Joe McKnight.
Which brings us to the latest arrest:
2007 - USC junior safety Josh Pinkard arrested May 18 on the suspicion of drunk driving.
He then goes on to conclude that, according to google, 'SC is a dirty program. Why? Because "Pete Carroll Arrested" returns more hits than "Bobby Bowden Arrested" or "Joe Paterno Arrested." Never mind the fact that the articles and arrests that would have been written about FSU and PSU would be in print, before the advent of the internet, and google's search engine.
Additionally, as Trojanhorse rebuts in a post a bit down the page, lots of these aren't actually crimes. Steve Smith breaking D Bird's jaw sure was stupid, but I don't understand how it indicts a program. And while Lendale and Pete's prank may be in poor taste to some, it didn't hurt anybody.
Come on Kevin...are you actually listening to the schmucks in baby blue?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Conquest Chronicles' writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Conquest Chronicles' writers or editors.
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I like the way...
Just goes to show that if you repeat the same old shit long enough people take it seriously.
I posted this over there...
Like my friend DC Trojan said: Just goes to show that if you repeat the same old s--t long enough people take it seriously.
Gotta admit it looks like you must be on the BN mailing list in order to keep up with the list of transgressions here. Not a lot going on in your off-season Kevin?
I look at some of these things here and laugh, a lot of filler and not a lot of substance, like most things on this site. You mention lack of discipline above, in whose eyes? Yours? So Pete Carroll is loose so what! If he wasn't winning AND being a part of one of the most storied programs in CFB no one would pay attention.
You're kidding me right?
- Hazing a QB? Hell, I guess that doesn't happen anywhere else either. Cry me a river.
- Two players get into a fight and one has his jaw broken? Gee, I never thought athletes got into fights especially football players, if it was two students we wouldn't give it another thought. S--t Happens. Go figure...
- Damage to the dorms after players get into a water fight? A water fight! You can't be serious. Guess you've never been to a frat house, every one I went to with my brother who was a UCLA grad looked like a war zone so why would the dorms be any different, water fights or not. You got older kids Kevin? They tend to go through a slob stage between the years of 18-22, I know I have 2 in college.
- Solicitation of a hooker? Big deal I guess you never went to a strip club especially in Florida where anything goes, the local talent tends to solicitate you.
- Throwing a tackling dummy off the roof? Tasteless I'll admit, but compared to some of things that go on between teams during rivalry week this is pretty tame.
- Taking recruits to an alums restaurant? Like Trojan Horse said above, old news here.
As for the other legal issues, I would agree that there are pretty bad acts there but I don't see any convictions on that list. And as I have said elsewhere, something that often gets lost in this discussion is that we don't know really what happened in some of these instances. I was more pissed off that Sanchez used a fake ID to get into a bar, that clearly showed intent, than the whole sexual assault thing as I knew there was more to the story and that it probably never happened. Accusations like that are often treated like nuclear warfare, as once someone accuses someone of it they are immediately on the defensive; you know guilty until proven innocent.
I'm sure that some of these incidents had more to do with over zealous cops and prosecutors than actual transgressions like the Sanchez incident. I loved how the local news stations camped out at the dorm when he was arrested. Talk about sensational. SC being as high profile as it is would be a great trophy to hang on ones mantle if they could bag a player doing something stupid. To me it's more like shoot first ask questions later. Maybe the charges were dropped because there was never anything there but the player is now stained like in Rey's case for nothing more that getting into a fight. I've seen more than my fair share of donnybrooks in my younger years and I wasn't arrested so to me it's no big deal.
Seems to me that if the NCCA had issues with SC they would do something about it, they certainly have investigated and punished other schools in the past for a whole host of issues. If they don't have the stones to do it, or if they don't have the evidence, as in the Bush case, then it seems to me that there isn't much they can do, nor is it SC's problem.
Football is a violent sport and the top players have a certain killer extinct. Couple that with all the coddling that players are given and it shouldn't surprise anyone that these sorts of incidents happen, it isn't right and I certainly won't excuse it but I don't know why anyone is surprised. I'm all for character but I'm not naive either, look carefully at the sports landscape there is a lot of character missing and I can only worry about my own little corner of the world. I'm not happy with some of the things on this list but they are not all true nor are they as big a deal as you are or thee crew from across town would make you believe.
I couldn't care less if SC is compared to any other program. I don't follow those schools and I have little concern about them as I am not a part of their fan base.
Interesting read
After reading it though, I would be shocked if the NCAA didnt level some sort of sanction at us for Reggie's misconduct.
To be honest
Back when I was in school, which was back in the Larry Smith days, I was present while no less than 5 fist fights erupted at various parties, or events I was attending. One of them actually did involve a Trojan offensive lineman that I was friends with. This same lineman went on to beat the tar out of an undercover cop on the weekender later that year. On the flip side, one of my friends was assaulted by a UCLA football player while in Westwood. He accidently stepped on the guys foot in a club, the UCLA player tapped him on the shoulder, he turned, and was sucker-punched.
My point is, people in college get into fights, and do generally stupid crap which can be seen in the abundance of videos that are floating around on youtube. Hell, the SC band broke someones leg up at Cal.
As far as the Lendale prank goes, I don't recall anyone on the team not being amused by the whole thing, and I was there that day. That even being on the list is taken completely out of context.
When did we break someone's leg?
A long time ago
Now that you mention it
At the very least
quibble here
Now Carroll's lax disciplinary standards (IMHO) make this kind of activity more likely as players develop a sense of invulnerability with a coach who doesn't seem inclined to bring the hammer down when players misbehave but that still does not make USC responsible for these jackasses acting criminally/stupidly. IIRC, nobody at USC has officially made any comment about the extent of the bad behavior/criminality, or mentioned what I perceive as Carroll's lax discipline toward his players, and that tells me a lot about what will be tolerated at USC in exchange for a winning team-but as Paragon and others have correctly pointed out, that is a standard USC chooses to place on itself and nobody else has any obligation to behave better. I like to think that a school would care as much about the character of its players as well as their athletic prowess, but that's me, not everybody else.
HOME RUN!!!
Come on SBM a good number of SC fans feel that that there is a lack of discipline and a number of us have commented on it and asked for some answers like I did here and here on my old site. As a number of us have tried to explain before we care but how we address it is different than some might expect.
Separate the issues, it is valid to question the character of players who get into trouble with the law and we have no problem with calling out bad behavior but when its mixed with BS about water fights and hazing and such, as Kevin did on Fanblogs, we'll see it for what it is...crap. That is where "institutional control" comes in. SC has chosen to discipline its players in a way that may differ from what you expect but it's their call and no amount of feigned outrage will change that.
The "White Nation" thing brings up some interesting issues in regards to free speech. I have always felt that free speech may give you the right to say what you want but it doesn't give you the right to be heard and it certainly isn't barometer of smarts or common sense. So while it makes the school look bad you will have a hard time lumping that in with some of the other non-legal or non-NCAA issues on the list above.
Where we part ways is how we expect accountability or more to the point how we will address it publicly. Just because we don't go crazy like you-know-who across town doesn't mean we don't expect it or won't address it. There is also a common sense component to it.
But to me this is the money quote form dj89:
(emphasis mine)
Like it or not SC/PC recruits talent and not necessarily character. I'm not saying its right but that is how it is. I may not like it but I have no choice but to accept it because I can't change it. And to me some of the actions of your fellow fans in an attempt to get the word out to demand change probably hurts more than helps. I'm not naïve, at some point if it continues the school will take action. Until they do I will continue to address it as I see fit and not cave in to those who expect us to act like they do.
Many of the issues could be stopped
The penalty for misconduct doesn't matter. The coaches need to be able to stop these things before they happen. Obviously some problems are unavoidable, but the sheer number of problems shows a lack of control. USC does seem to be responsible, because there is absolutely no reason that the number of jackasses at each school wouldn't be evenly distributed.
by SuperBruinMan on Jun 1, 2007 8:22 PM PDT up reply actions
A rebuttal to your above post
I think you need to check your facts next time. Its funny how you guys come down so hard on Winston Justice for brandish a fake gun, and you completely overlook a Florida player for fireing a semiautomatic rifle.
This is why your posts are so funny superbruinman. You really dont care about your arguements, you only want to bash USC.
April 2007
GAINESVILLE, Fla. -- Florida offensive lineman Ronnie Matthew Wilson was arrested Thursday, accused of firing a semiautomatic rifle in the air during a dispute with another man that started in a nightclub.
Wilson, 19, has been suspended from team activities, coach Urban Meyer said. Wilson was charged with aggravated assault, simple battery and the use or display of concealed weapon during the commission of a felony, according to jail records.
May 29, 2007
DESTIN -- University of Florida safety Dorian Munroe was arrested last week and charged with theft after Munroe admitted to a UF police officer that he had removed a UPD ''boot'' from one of his tires and placed it in his trunk.
Munroe was charged with a third-degree felony, according to a police report, because the boot was valued at $385. UF's police department places the boots on vehicles whose owners either have three or more outstanding parking tickets or five guilty citations within a year.
More Florida fun with Urban Meyer
UF senior defensive tackle Marcus Thomas takes a break during fall camp. Thomas has been suspended indefinitely for reportedly failing two drug tests.
April 2007
GAINESVILLE, FL (AP) -- Linebacker Dustin Doe, who was arrested Sunday for fighting in public, will not be suspended. Head coach Urban Meyer said at practice yesterday that Doe could still face internal punishment.
Oct 2005
Cornerback Dawayne Grace was arrested after fighting outside a nightclub early Sunday morning, according to police documents.
According to the documents, Gainesville Police Department officers spotted Grace pushing somebody in the parking lot of the club located at 238 W. University Ave. When officers told Grace to "break it up and move on," Grace allegedly threw a punch at another individual, prompting his arrest.
June 2006
GAINESVILLE - Nearly two weeks after Florida sophomore cornerback Avery Atkins' ex-girlfriend filed a sworn complaint of felony false imprisonment and misdemeanor domestic battery, he was granted a release from the team by coach Urban Meyer.
Comparison
Grace = Maualaga
Atkins = Frostee Rucker
Can you find a parallel for the other 5 USC incidents you gave points for?
by SuperBruinMan on Jun 2, 2007 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Comparison
Munroe didn't pay his parking tickets and took off the thing stopping him from using his car? That's actually pretty funny. Munroe incident > Sanchez incident
by SuperBruinMan on Jun 2, 2007 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
How about retracting your statement
Yes or no
To answer your other question, Pete Carroll has been at SC for 6.5 seasons. Urban Meyer has been coaching for 3.5 seasons.
If you do the math, Urban Meyer has more problems a year than Pete Carroll, who has had more success than Meyer.
So I guess this blows your whole argument out of the water... again. I like how you totally ignored the utter falsehood of your previous post btw.
I like your grading system
Wright was a bad kid, Wilson is a bad kid. I don't think anything Wright did could have killed someone though.
I would rather face Wright and his pills, than wilson and his assault rifle any day.
There was also the sexual assault
With a gun, he could have shot somebody, but he didn't. Having a gun is bad, but sexually assaulting someone is worse.
Meanwhile Florida has not had a player take $100,000+ or take steroids.
by SuperBruinMan on Jun 3, 2007 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Once again
Yes or no?
You said that nothing happens over there, and you were wrong. I pointed out that the average criminal activity in Florida is higher than USC, and you have nothing to say about that either.
This is the reason why your arguments have no validity. You get confronted with facts, and you simply ignore them.
I will address your point on the sexual assault allegation. Yes, an allegation was made. Of the 3 allegations against Trojan players, this is the one that I have no details about. The only thing that I know for sure is that there were no charges filed. This doesnt mean that Wright was innocent.
I can't wait to see what your vivid imagination comes up with next. So far we have:
- UCLA fires Toledo because of the off the field behavior of his players.
- Nothing bad ever happens in Florida.
- More incidents a year at Florida is better than less incidents a year at USC.
Here
Nothing bad ever happens in Florida. There have been some problems, but not as many as USC.
More incidents a year at Florida is better than less incidents a year at USC. The main reason Carroll has less per year is that the incidents only started after they were mostly his players in the program. If you start from when the first incident was you get 10 in 4 and a half years for Carroll and 5 in 2 and a half years for Meyer. Carroll's average is higher, and every single incident involved his own recruit.
by SuperBruinMan on Jun 3, 2007 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Spin City
I'm done arguing with you, you can't make a good point, you don't base your posts on facts, and you ignore facts that you don't like.
Have a nice life in dreamland superbruin.
Pointless...
It's not my problem and I not going to get on a high horse and beat my chest over it like they do across town. Garrett and Carroll can handle it as they see fit. If the Board of Regents has an issue with it then they can take it up with and ask them to fix it.
I want to watch the team play, if the program thinks there is an issue they can suspend/expel players and I will still continue to root for the team whether they are 11-0 or 0-11. The other stuff is minutia, I've said my piece and will let those more close to the situation deal with it. Screaming and yelling about it only gets you so far and usually in the negative.
Some will say I'm burying my head in the sand...whatever. I have more important things to worry about and this sure as hell isn't one of them.
I agree with you on some points
The "White Nation" incident is identical to something that happened at UCLA and USC back when I went to school. A UCLA frat came underfire for a non-PC songbook, and the USC band got caught with a non-PC underground newspaper. This is a student conduct issue, not a criminal issue. There is a big difference between a criminal act, and an out of context non politically correct, stupid website. For your information, the USC band had 3 students receive student conduct violations for their non-PC underground newspaper. They all had to write a 5 page paper on the conduct violations they they violated. The UCLA frat guys sued the school and got a 6 figure settlement from the school for violating their free speech.
I don't think that its fair to assume that Matt Leinart should memorize the entire NCAA rule book. I think he has a general knowledge of what is right and wrong. He didn't receive any money for the promo he did. It was off the cuff, and being the most famous player in college football at the time, he had media requests for his time on a daily basis. He was a good kid, and he played honorably. To put him on the same list as Wright and Justice, is just not fair.
Which brings me to your last point, and I totally agree with you on this. Steve Smith and Dominique Byrd should have been suspended for a game or two for fighting. The team could have sent a message with that, but they chose not to. Rey should have also been suspended as well for punching that guy last year.
My opinion about how Coach Carroll runs his program is that its too loose. The harshest criticism that I can level at Carroll is that I believe that he does not do enough to try to prevent problems and bad/criminal behavior. I also believe his punishments of his players, specifically the fighting, is too lenient.
well
In terms of the bigger picture, it's not really important whether or not the players got punished, it's the fact that these events keep on happening year after year that should have you concerned.
by ranelar on May 31, 2007 6:54 PM PDT reply actions
Again...
As for KD no one here will ever accuse him of anything including running a football program. Well...maybe of running it into the ground. Free groceries, handicapped parking etc. mean nothing to me. S--t happens so I pay it no mind.
Manning is intriguing to me. You guys will never let us separate ourselves from OJ for his terrible crimes though he graduated decades ago so I'm sure you'll understand if we keep you on the hook for Manning. There is obviously no comparison between a double murder and aggravated assault/a possible hate crime but he's yours and you just can't say "we disown him".
I am always amused at the level of obsession that you guys have for us over there, I'm not sure why you care, its not your school but then again I didn't live the rivalry so I guess I wouldn't understand.
Manning
The last 21 usc headlines (maybe the last 24? I don't know when Justice and Dennis were recruited) are all Carroll recruits and were members of the team at the time. They knew that if they screwed up, they would have to face Carroll and possibly Mike Garret, but apparently that's not much a deterrent.
I guess if you don't have school pride, and you dont care, then you dont care. But in that case, why bother posting? I'd like a response from someone who does care about the southern cal image.
by ranelar on May 31, 2007 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions
One small reason
The big reason that he was fired was because he wasn't winning, specifically against USC. I guarantee you that Toledo would still be your head coach if he won a few PAC-10 titles and Rose bowls during his tenure. Don't fool yourself to think that the discipline thing was anything more than an excuse to fire the guy.
It was more than just a small reason
by SuperBruinMan on Jun 1, 2007 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Live the dream
I admire you for your principles. It takes a big man to proclaim that he would rather have a nice squeaky clean program with 1 or 2 incidents a year, than:
5 consecutive PAC-10 titles
5 BCS bowl appearances
4 BCS bowl victories
3 Heisman trophy winners
2 national titles
34 game winning streak
5 years without losing a game at home
What I said was
by SuperBruinMan on Jun 2, 2007 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
not quite
If he had won, he might have lasted another season or two, but he would not have lasted with his players scoring so high in Fulmer Cup competition.
You dont have to agree with me
If you dont agree thats fine. You're not going to change my mind on the subject.
Interesting question...
I do care, but not enough to go off half-cocked as others do. Unlike some I have faith in the higher ups at our program to the right thing, that's what they get paid for. Maybe SC's standards are different from ucla's. That's fine, SC will address it as they see fit that's the difference as most SC fans have faith in the organizations ability to address the issues but it doesn't have to be on anyone's time table other than SC's.
It is sanctimonious for those not in a position to know or have vested position in the argument to expect SC to address it as THEY see fit.
Again, why do you care? Other than to see SC humiliated I'm not buying into the whole "sanctity for the game" argument. I'm into sports, not policy. As for your question "why bother posting?" well I will obviously comment on the issues that come up but because I'm a fan and not an alum I'm a little more objective in my opinion and not blinded by hatred or rivalry.
Take a look around this site, you won't find a whole lot of nastiness here. We may disagree but we try to keep it civil regardless of any commentor's opinion. I'm sure DC Trojan, USCLink or any other alum could answer your question but I suspect you won't get an answer that is too far off from where I am coming from.
You're correct
If Ben Howland's players were drinking underage at night clubs, getting into physical fights with each other, getting accused of various crimes, destroying property, etc, etc, I would demand change. Sure, as a fan I would grant some leniency because of the "hell, he wins" attitude, but that wouldn't last for 2 going on 3 years. I would say we need to find a winner who recruits and manages players that don't drag UCLA's name in the mud. Yes, football has ~100 players, and basketball is in the teens, but there are other comparisons that can made between other winning football programs and sc. I don't think you can find a university with a wrap sheet quite as extensive as sc's in recent years, and even if you could, I'm certain you wouldn't want to compare yourself to that program.
Basically, I write these things because I can't believe that proud alumni of an academically ranked university would be so nonchalant about these things. In my view, they're either lying to themselves, or they're lying to everyone else.
by ranelar on May 31, 2007 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Fine
I still think you are missing something here. Based on private discussions with some SC alums, both family and friends, there is a lot of anger about these issues but the difference is in how we/they choose to address it. If you guys want to scream and yell about it over there knock yourself out but that doesn't mean that we have to act the same way. I know that two SC alums that I am close to have made private inquiries about these issues to voice their displeasure, notice I said "private", some fans just choose to do it differently.
I don't think SC fans are being nonchalant about it I think they just choose not to act like raving maniacs, all the mock outrage that you see or participate in elsewhere has probably jaded your view of how people should act. I'm not naïve that some SC fans have the "win at all costs" attitude, that's not me but I'm not going to light my hair on fire over it either.
As an example, I could care less what any of BH's players do except on the court. Sure, we'll make note of a transgression when one comes up but there won't be any gnashing of teeth or profound outrage here, at least not by me and probably not by DC Trojan as well, as there are more important things to discuss in regards to USC sports.
You choose to participate in a forum that goes nuts at anything that doesn't neatly fit into their collective view of things, that's fine, I just choose to do it different, it doesn't mean I'm callous I just have different priorities. Again, I understand about school pride and all but not everyone acts or feels as you do. That doesn't mean they're uncaring or bad people, they just have a different view of things.
My basic premise still has not been answered, why do you care? Based on some of the things that I have read some bruin fans feel that anyone who attended SC is lacking in character by just having gone to SC (Fox 71). When people take that sort of stance they disqualify themselves, at least to me, as being able to have any sort civil discussion based on preconceived notions. That's where we're different. You want to hammer the players/coaches/AD about these issues that's fine but when the fan base is attacked as whole as being morally deficient that is when credibility goes out the window and any serious discussion ceases to exist.
why care
I thought the reason why I care was already answered, you nailed it in the last post. I dont like sc very much :P As a member of the Drumline, I've had the privilege of meeting the very worst fans you guys have, and five years of that is more than enough to skew someone's perception (even one year really). I don't think sc fans lack souls, but I have enough personal experience to justify my distaste for your fan base. I'm not the type of guy who will be inflammatory on the internet, I tend to ignore those kinds of posts whether it's on BN or any sc blog. But can you blame me for wanting to pick on my rival (especially a band guy like link) in a discussion using reason? :P
by ranelar on Jun 1, 2007 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions
to add to that
by ranelar on Jun 1, 2007 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions
You would be correct...
We're cool here.
I think you know that's not what we're about. All are welcome regardless of position or school affiliation.
I think you get it and I enjoyed your give and take. Continue to participate as you see fit.
We get the rivalry thing here
I agree with you on your rational tone an have no problem with you stating your case here and we are certainly fine with some good natured ribbing. We're not little angels here so we can take a punch but we can also hit back though not out of malice.
Peace.
current member?
Altho that Queen show you guys had last year was pretty weak. (not that all of ours are good...movie theme shows tend to suck excluding Snakes on a Plane)
I'm always down for reasonable discussion, as are all of us. Come back, say hey, tell us we run a loose ship because of XYZ and that you'll beat us b/c of players ABC.
You'll be wrong, but telling you that is half the fun of the rivalry.
graduating member
Anyway, glidestepping is better than doing a slow horse trot now and then, and standing around most of the time :P "The best damn standing band in the universe" as I like to say. 40 page drill is infinitely more entertaining than pelvis pumping in my humble opinion (btw, wow that's a lot of belching). That's from the day we played the queen show actually, and after that 66 point bashing we all said, "Well, at least our band won." It's also the first time I've heard usc fans clap after our performance at the coliseum.
Plus, try doing this in a high step:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc3AvWIpREg
Also, I like our music selection much better. While you guys are playing Crazy and Michael Jackson Medlies, we're doing Joe Zawinul and Chick Corea.
But I digress, we could banter for ages about marching bands :P At least, I could.
by ranelar on Jun 1, 2007 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions
We'll cry over our platinum albums
Maybe I'm bias but what irritates me about the bruin pregame is the 20th century fox logo music, and the dumb cape thing at the end. As a musician I have to admit that UCLA has a fine marching band that is by far, more polished than USC's is.
20th century fox
by ranelar on Jun 1, 2007 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions
credit where credit is due
I dunno about the music though...we never actually played Crazy (we had an arrangement for it that never got used - thank god), but Michael Jackson has some pretty high quality stuff. Brooklyn is pretty amazing, and I don't think you guys have a set that can compete with Toxicity, Aerials, Question, and Radio/Video by System of a Down. That show was ridiculous, and John Dolmayan is an absolutely amazing percussionist.
Its all a matter of opinion, and we're obviously going to disagree, but I'll stand by my opinion that your basketball band's hawaiin shirts are the most hideous things I've ever seen. Which is entertaining, because I know a guy who wears nothing but hawaiin shirts.
The Pac-10 actually has some pretty decent bands as a whole. Oregon's bball band is amazing, and its hard to think of one that is bad.
Sorry...
In fact it think it does their music a disservice. Thank God Jaco and Metheny's music is too complicated to be transcribed for the marching band.
If that happened I would light my hair on fire! :-)
Any requests for this year?
Re: You're Correct
However, there's also a lot of fluff on that list, and when you have people on the original message board saying that it was clear that Leinart was compensated for his impromptu SportsCenter argument, and including things in the list like the practical joke, Mark Sanchez getting his head shaved, or a water fight in the dorms, the likelihood of a meaningful discussion coming out of this is significantly reduced.
You listed 21 incidents in the past two seasons. After accounting for double-listing of some incidents, here are the items on that list that concern me, as an alum.
Incidents I was/am concerned about:
2005 - USC CB Eric Wright was arrested for investigation of sexual assault.
2005 - USC CB suspended three semesters after police found 136 Ecstasy pills in his apartment
2005 - USC DE Frostee Rucker investigated for spousal battery (later charged with two misdemeanor counts of spousal battery and two counts of vandalism from the 2005 beating of his girlfriend)
2005 - USC LB Rey Maualuga arrested for misdemeanor battery after punching a man at an off-campus Halloween party
2006 - USC QB Mark Sanchez was arrested for investigation of sexual assault (as previously noted by other posters, concerned because of the underage drinking and fake ID)
2006 - USC DBs Brandon & Ryan Ting quit the team under allegations of steroid use
2006 - USC RB Reggie Bush and his family investigated for improper gifts and benefits
2007 - USC junior safety Josh Pinkard arrested May 18 on the suspicion of drunk driving.
Most of the things on that list were dealt with to my satisfaction. Although I'm very disappointed that these things happened, either the players responsible left the team early, or a punishment that I think was appropriate, given the circumstances, was handed out. I'm not too happy with the Frostee Rucker incident, based on my understanding of it, but that's really the one thing.
The Bush thing I'm only concerned about the effect that it'll have on the program in terms of sanctions. There were no boosters involved, and any benefits Bush received provided absolutely no competitive advantage for USC. It didn't get him to come here, it didn't make him stay here (he was already the star, and left as soon as he could). It was a one-off thing that will hopefully serve as a wake-up call to the program to take steps to minimize the chance of this happening again.
The remainder I'm not too concerned with from the perspective of the program, for reasons that have been said by other posters. The NCAA violations and allegations have been dealt with, with the exception of the Bush one.
Hopefully that explains things a little bit. You're looking for the worst in your rival (and that's fair enough, I suppose, although I don't think that's a sentiment that's shared by a lot of us here) and see a list with 21 things on it. I'm not denying the serious incidents on it, and we're probably more disappointed than anyone when they occur, but I'm not concerned about some of the small incidents that people looking for blood latch on to.
I care
I said above that I am upset when things like the assaults are basically given a slap on the wrist. I also said that I think PC runs a loose program as far as discipline goes. So in that aspect of this discussion, I agree with you.
I have a problem with the above list being refered to as a pattern when it contains things like a false rape allegation. I'm not saying that there arent legit items on that list, but over half of it I think is unfounded. I'm concerned with criminal acts, and NCAA violations. I am not concerned when a player gets falsely accused. I am also not concerned with issues regarding free speech. The "White Nation" thing is not politically correct at all, and knowing the way the world works the players involved should have known better, but I'm not going to call them racists or worse for exhibiting bad taste, which is totally legal in the USA btw.
I care about my school's image
Frankly, I go over these transgressions every day on my usual CC/Trojanwire/Scott Wolf blog read-throughs and responses like yours, ranelar, are pretty much everywhere. Yet, I couldn't care less about what people have to say about USC's program. Here's why:
As a recent graduate I REALLY care about my school's image, since that has an obvious affect on my future. However, the only reputations worth working for are the ones that USC has with the NCAA and the BCS. These two institutions are the only entities that can restrict us from winning championships or sanction our school for misconduct.
I don't care about what you or any other non-USC homer thinks about my school because your feelings are always going to be negative towards us, so why waste any of my conscious on it? By rooting for one of my school's rivals (or, again, any other program) your job is to scrutinize what our program does.
So congratulations on your opinion; you're discontent with the way USC and our coaching staff handles disciplinary issues. That's great. But frankly, you (and your friends) and I will never see eye to eye on this: USC fans and alumni will say that these allegations are blown out of proportion because of the jealousy and hubris of our inferior opponents (as we should) and your comrades will respond to stories like this by pointing out that our victories should be nullified because they were the result outrageous institutional misconduct/NCAA violations and that our program is full of thugs (as you should).
Welcome to college football.
by Class of 2007 on May 31, 2007 8:30 PM PDT reply actions
Breaking down the list
2003 - USC OT Winston Justice plead no contest to solicitation of a prostitute. (1 point for this one)
2004 - USC OT Winston Justice was arrested on suspicion of felony assault with a deadly weapon - plead no contest. (1 point for this one, same guy, different crime. Still counts though)
2004 - USC RB Hershel Dennis investigated for an alleged sexual assault. Suspended for "breaking team rules". (0 points for this, alleged victim retracted her accusation a year later and exonerated Dennis. Why is this on the list?)
2005 - USC CB Eric Wright was arrested for investigation of sexual assault. (1 point for this one.)
2005 - USC CB suspended three semesters after police found 136 Ecstasy pills in his apartment. (1 point for this one. Same guy again, different crime.)
2005 - USC TE Dominique Bird gets a broken jaw in a fight with WR Steve Smith. (1 point for this, no real punishment for this either. Very bad)
2005 - USC DE Frostee Rucker investigated for spousal battery (0 points, you dont get a point for an investigation, especially if the same crime shows up on the list further down. You'll get a point for it there.
2005 - 10 USC players investigated for hazing QB Mark Sanchez. (0 points, OMG they shaved his head, called the riot police!!)
2005 - Several players investigated for damage to dorms following a fight among players (0 points- OMG a water fight ruined the drywall!!! we are soooo busted)
2005 - USC RB LenDale White simulates suicide by throwing a tackling dummy off a building in view of the team as a "prank" devised by White & Carroll (0 points- I'm not sure why a practical joke that the whole team had a good laugh over is on this list)
2005 - USC players accused of pushing Washington State Head Coach Bill Doba before halftime (0 points-pushing??? another outta control moment)
2005 - USC LB Rey Maualuga arrested for misdemeanor battery after punching a man at an off-campus Halloween party (1 point- yay you guys got another point.)
2005 - USC QB Matt Leinart is ruled ineligible briefly by the NCAA after an ESPN TV promotion (0 points- "You're watching ESPN" never made so much news. The NCAA saw it for what it was, which was nothing at all.)
2006 - Football team investigated for recruiting violations in visits to Papadakis Taverna (0 points- no violations took place. USC is allowed to buy a meal for recruits.)
2006 - USC QB Matt Leinart was cited by the Pac-10 for illegal workouts at USC (0 points- DRAT!!! they caught us illegally working out!!! Quick cancel the season!!)
2006 - USC DE Frostee Rucker charged with two misdemeanor counts of spousal battery and two counts of vandalism from the 2005 beating of his girlfriend (1 point- I know you wanted 2 points for this one, but hey you only get 1)
2006 - USC RB Reggie Bush and his family investigated for improper gifts and benefits (1 point Reggie let us all down here)
2006 - USC QB Mark Sanchez was arrested for investigation of sexual assault (0 points- No evidence of rape, 2 witnesses in the apartment at the time heard nothing from victim before or after Mark left, alleged victims mother accused Mark. Find me a reason to give you a point on this one and you got it. I don't give points for accusations.)
2006 - USC WR Dwayne Jarrett investigated for failing to pay rent (0 points- Honest mistake, no matter how you want to look at it, and he turned himself in to the NCAA, so good luck trying to say that he was trying to pull a fast one.)
2006 - USC DBs Brandon & Ryan Ting quit the team under allegations of steroid use (1 point- Although I'm pretty sure that they got the idea from their dad and not the football team.)
2007 - A federal investigation revealed tapes regarding USC RB Reggie Bush and his family allegedly extorting $280,000 in cash, rent and gifts while he was playing football for USC. (0 points- Already gave you a point for Reggie.
2007 - USC LB Clay Matthews created a racist Facebook group called "White Nation". The group was joined by USC players David Buehler, Brian Cushing, Dan Deckas and Dallas Sartz. (0 points- Freedom of speech isn't illegal last time I checked, you don't get a point for football players with bad taste.)
2007 - USC compliance officials investigate illegal recruiting of RB Joe McKnight. (0 points- PC denies it happened, and with the phone records out there, it shouldn't be hard to find if it did happen.)
Which brings us to the latest arrest:
2007 - USC junior safety Josh Pinkard arrested May 18 on the suspicion of drunk driving. (1 point- Sad that this still happens, especially after poor Mario.)
Sub Total 9 points
+ 1 point for Mark Sanchez's fake I.D. and underage drinking
Total 10 points
Let's see thats 10 things that I can't argue with that happened under Pete Carrolls watch.
Day late and a dollar short
Rather like Paragon SC, I am dismayed at the occasional lax look of team discipline, but I am not distraught over it. That's because of an inherent cynicism: I don't view the football team as entirely emblematic of the university. They represent themselves, as far as I am concerned, and they are governed by different rules.
Plainly, I'd prefer that they behave themselves and win. But it doesn't make me feel ashamed of SC when football players get up to malarkey, just as the Hackett era didn't make me ashamed. (You try supporting Scotland in international soccer or rugby without being able to detach yourself emotionally, it's a recipe for suicide - that's where I learned it.)
I still think that there's more goes on that meets the eye at a lot of schools. When I was in grad school at Brown, I knew a couple of Irish grad students who narrowly avoided being hospitalized when a couple of guys from the Brown football team (!) took exception to them chatting up a couple of cheerleaders... the Irish guys nearly got their heads split open and one of the cheerleaders ended up with a broken nose and NOTHING happened to the football players.
I also suspect that it's better now that it used to be. My kids' swim teacher was a walk-on at SC in the late 70s (he's also a boxing instructor so he gets no guff from no-one) and he was saying that what went on in those days at both USC and UCLA would set your hair on end...
Anyway, long story short (too late!) I agree with Paragon that the disciplinary approach can be too lax at times but that doesn't do much to color my views of the university.
I agree with you DC
If you throw a punch, then you sit down for a game or two, no exceptions. This may or may not work, but it has to have a better result than doing nothing at all.
I usually stay out of these inane arguments but
(1) UCLA fired Toledo because he failed to win a bowl game or beat USC for 4 straight years. Player problems were ancillary to that.
(2) Florida just won its first title game in 10 years; it was also their their first BCS appearance in the past five years. Let's see how much attention the actions of their players garner once they become a BCS name stay for five straight years. Or any other team for that matter.
(3) This is pedantic of me but, Leinart wasn't a Carrol recruit. I don't think anything he did while at USC was that serious though; still, that would take away from Carrol's "average" that you speak of. (Though I don't understand what being one's own recruits has to do with disciplinary competence.)
Honestly, I think this type of attention towards a rival's program is a bit obsessive. I try to stay away from UCLA homer blogs but whenever I do cross by one I typically end up reading a story about my alma mater (instead of ... UCLA). I think UCLA's program would be better served if its fans payed more attention to ameliorating their own situation than accusing their opponents of misconduct. It just makes you look whiny and apologetic.
by Class of 2007 on Jun 3, 2007 9:19 PM PDT reply actions
Appently FL is only jealous of one LA school
posted on June 4, 2007 02:35 PM -- IP: 70.121.185.56 -- link
C-DOGG (#47):
In overall judgement of an University's Athletics prowess when compared side by side with other schools?
Absolutely...
Hence the huge acknowledgement by US Today when UCLA became the first school to reach the 100 team titles mark this past spring...
In the mind of a bandwagon fan?
Probably not...
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